Cryogenic Processing

[DG624]

Has anyone had any experience with Croyogenic Processing Isotropic Superfinishing? This is a process that cools parts to change their properties and then use a finishing process to make them less prone to friction. The site for Evans Performance Products, which does this process, is www.evansperformance.com

I was thinking about having my transmission (915 Carrera) polished and treated to improve shifting and improve longevity. They say their process is $650 for all of the gears and internal parts. If this helps shifting and improves syncro wear it may be worth it.

[DG624]

I guess look before you leap so I am wanting to know if there is ANYBODY that has direct experience with this? I have had ongoing problems with the trans and would like it to be smooth and quick. I think there should be more than just WEVO.

[jpachard]

I had brake rotors Cryo'ed and I didn't notice a difference. I realize this is a different application though. Personally, I would go for the Wevo since the root of the transmission problems in the 915 are related to mechanical issues associated with the poor shifting mechanism. The small gains you might see from cryo treatment will be hidden by the mechanics.

Cheers, James

[Emission]

Do the race teams do it? Does aerospace do it?

Those are my questions when I look at "super" solutions... like synthetic oil (yes to both those questions).

[jmz]

alot of people cryo treat their brake rotors with success I hear.

I don't think that cryo treating your trans is going to get you where you want though.

JZ

[fredmeister]

Don't know if cryo treating brake rotors is really beneficial since when you run them on track they heat up pretty close to the temperature they are heat treated at to cryo treat them. Would not this undo the heat treatment process after the first time they are run hard?
Looked into this a little with casting experts at the casting company I worked for and it is a controversial subject whether it really works on cast iron rotors/parts or not......has to do with formation of martensite and other metallurgical properties. Any hard data and results of legitimate testing back to back to support favorable results?

[Randy Webb]

Sounds like no body else has direct experience. Is it worth $650 to do an experiment?

Or have you asked these guys if they will give any kind of a guarantee?

Or any customers you can call?

Emission asked good questions. I'd check that out.

[pwd72s]

FWIW, cryogenics is also touted as a way to improve accuracy and lifespan in rifle barrels. The NRA conducted tests. Results were inconclusive, no discernable difference between barrels treated and barrels not treated.

[widebody911]

Cryo treatment has been proven to be 100% effective at lightening the wallets of the easily-awed.

For $650, I think you'd be better off with an extra set of rotors and pads.

[rcwaldo]

Originally posted by fredmeister
Don't know if cryo treating brake rotors is really beneficial since when you run them on track they heat up pretty close to the temperature they are heat treated at to cryo treat them.

The cryogenically treating process is actually cooling a certain component down to absolute zero, slowing down molecular movement and realigning them. I have not seen much proof of favorable results.

Since race car parts do not last long at all, I would think if this technology is worth a darn, I would have heard of this application used in the racing industry. Just my opinion

Chris Walrod

[alfizzo]

i cryo froze my g50 pressure plate and clutch disk. being a electoplater i see all different types of machined metal parts. most parts that are cryo frozen in production are nasa, air force and high end medical parts. cryo freezing helps DEstress the metal and realign the molecules to advoid faliure in a stress area. most auto parts manufactures would not spec out a cryo process because they are cheap. however you might not see a performance gain but the durability and strength of the metal will increase. i have personally seen race teams cryo freezing every part and had parts hold up longer, more power with out failure.

[Wil Ferch]

Rcwaldo and fredmeister...

No....wrong.....

Cryo treatment is not heating ( Fred) , it's super-cooling....but not to "absolute zero"( rcwaldo)....which basically nothing can reach. Liquid hydrogen comes closest at about minus 434 degreesF.

Cryo treatment almost always uses liquid nitrogen....at a considerably "warmer" minus 320 degreesF.

And cryo treatment does affect molecular grain structure which usually toughens the host material...but I have no direct experience I can point to.

Wil

[SteveStromberg]

http://www.thomasregisterdirectory.com/cryogenic_equipment/cryogenic_services_0033437_1.html

[Wil Ferch]

Thanks for posting this, Steve, our company deals with many of these suppliers......

Wil

[DG624]

The process is not only cryogenic for improving strength but polishing to minimize friction. If the trans parts are made stronger and friction is reduced they should not only last longer but work better. Maybe nobody knows about this because it is a new application.

[Randy Webb]

That's quite possible. I vote that you should do it an report back. This will be a valuable public service and will cost me nothing. I'm sure all the others who aren't paying will join in this vote.

Seriously - ask them how old the process is & how long _thye_ have been doing it. If not new, scratch your head, and ask "well, the reason I asked is that I haven't heard of any race teams doing it..." See what the reply is.

[Wil Ferch]

I don't understand half these responses....how does cryo processing "polish" things.....just to add to the confusion.


BTW... the company I work for deals in such things and I simply don't understand. Is this anecdotal evidence?

--Wil

[Jeff Jagusch]

I'm not an expert and don't play one on TV either, BUT last year while I was rebuilding a race motor, I took the crank to a heat treater for Nitriding (Acutally that's a trade name for a specific process), in any case the day I was at the shop, the engineering manager was in from the national headquarters and he spent some time witt me discussing Nitriding, melonizing,..... seems that they work on engine components for most of the NASCAR teams.

In any case, I asked him about Cryo, and he told me that "THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF THAT CRYO TREATMENT ENHANCES METALLUGICAL PROPERTIES!" He went on to say that most of the testing and "data" gathered is NOT from controlled experiments.
He told me that he was personally involved with a several year long study with the government to understand cryogenic treatments, and the conclusion was that there was no benifit!

Again, I'm just relaying my conversation with a person that is very knowledgable on this subject, and I found it very interesting.

Jeff

[Geary]

The guys who claim incredible results from cryogenics have very vivid imaginations. Some of them are well known in the automotive industry, which really is puzzling.

Isotropic normalizing is a totally separate procedure, and has some merit. However, we didn't see much in the way of measureable benefits with the R&P sets that we had processed for a few of the ALMS and Grand AM teams last race season.

[DG624]

It is always good to have an objective view. I originally read about this in GRMotorsports in an ad. I then looked it up and the web site described their "Cryo" processing and its benefits:

"Residual stresses exist in all types of parts from engines to tooling. The stress is introduced into the part at the time of casting, forging, heat treating or machining. These stresses create an invisible random grain pattern. Parts expand from the heat generated during operation, the retained stresses cause uneven expansion which results in increased dimensional instability with increased wear and decreased performance.

Deep Cryogenic temperatures are required to effect a complete molecular change in most alloys giving the microstructure a more uniform grain structure. Deep Cryogenic temperatures distribute large quantities of very hard, fine carbides, that develop uniformly throughout the structure.

Heat treatment of steel involves the transformation from its softer more malleable annealed state to a harder more durable state. This is done, as it has been for centuries, by heating the steel and then rapidly cooling it. The result is a harder and more wear resistant object. The metallurgical reason for this is that as the steel is heated, it forms an austenite (large, unstable particles of carbon carbide) crystal structure or matrix. Rapidly cooling or quenching the steel (traditionally at room temperature) triggers some of the austenite structure to change into a different matrix called martensite (a more uniformly refined grain structure). It is the martensite structure that gives tempered steel its hardness and wear resistance for applications from cutting tools to engine parts.

The goal of heat treatment is to transform as much of the austenite as possible into martensite. However, some of the austenite is retained even after tempering. Through experimentation it was found that if the quench was lower than the traditional room temperature, less austenite was retained. Cryogenic treatment is an extension of the well known heat and quench cycle. Cryogenic Processing is specifically about controlled thermal cycling of materials over a period of up to 72 hours.

The austenite to martensite transformation achieved by deep thermal cryogenics is responsible for the exceptional wear characteristics due to a denser structure and resulting in a larger surface area of contact wiich reduces stress, fatigue, friction, heat and wear.

Cryogenic processing is a one time process, not a coating or surface treatment that can be machined away. It will not make the component more brittle or change its physical size."

SOunds like it is all good, except for the cost which is still not high. If the metal is all the same then maybe it would be good but what about gears that are supposed to be hard already?

The other part of the process is the polishing and that is described as:

"The REM (R) procedure is not a polishing process but rather a finishing process. REM (R) is a chemically excellerated process which involves two steps. The first step, referred to as the "Refinement Process", involves a chemical interaction on the surface of the part. A soft, thin (one micron) film is formed on the surface of the part. The part then interacts with the ceramic media in a special vibratory bowl.

During this interaction the film is physically removed from the "peaks" of the processed part and the "valleys" are unaffected. The chemically induced film re-form only at the peaks that are interacting with the vibratory media, and the process repeats itself. Over time, the peaks are removed, leaving only the valleys, producing the improved micro finish. The second step is referred to as the "Burnish Process." After the required micro finish is achieved, a mild alkaline mixture is introduced. After a relatively short period a polished, chrome-like finish is produced. In addition to the polishing effects, this step effectively removes all traces of the film formation from the "refinement" process.

BENEFITS
Reduced Friction, Vibration & Noise
Improved Shifting
Longer Life of parts
Reduction in Lubricant Temperatures Reduction in metal to metal pitting

APPLICATIONS
Gears of all types
Cam Shafts
Crank Shafts
Rocker Arms
Transmission Gears