Assess my head #2 please...photo here.

[H.G.P.]

While waiting for my engine stand ring, I'm trying to assess the damage to this head.

1. This is damaged head #2 (photos below). If replacement is needed, does this need to be specified as "#2 cylinder head", or are they all universal?

2. The marks on the head in the photos are "gouges" with dents, including by the spark plug hole. Can this be repaired?

3. If repair possible, what specifically should be requested?

4. Are there interchangable years with a 69 2.0 E, should total replacement be necessary?

Thank you!

[img]http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads4/Hq21100472036.jpg
[/img]

[Eagledriver]

Are you planning to do a valve job? If so I'd send all 6 heads to the machine shop you'll be using and have them make that evaluation. They may even have a replacement lying around. All the heads are the same on the engine and I'm sure there are a good number of years cylinder heads that will work (probably most 2 and 2.2 litre heads). If you replace the head you'll have to have the three heads on that side machined to all be the same height so the cam tower will fit ok.

-Andy

[H.G.P.]

Originally posted by Eagledriver
Are you planning to do a valve job? If so I'd send all 6 heads to the machine shop you'll be using and have them make that evaluation. They may even have a replacement lying around. All the heads are the same on the engine and I'm sure there are a good number of years cylinder heads that will work (probably most 2 and 2.2 litre heads). If you replace the head you'll have to have the three heads on that side machined to all be the same height so the cam tower will fit ok.

-Andy

Thanks Andy, very informative, and positive.

[afterburn 549]

I do valve jobs....wanna be positive- but I think I see toast if it all bunged up like it appears.......It could be madeto work if it was the last head on earth.......

[HarryD]

Kirk,

How did the cylinder wall and rings look?

[Jim Sims]

IMO as long as the valve seats are okay or are repairable and the head mating surface to the cylinder is okay I think you can reuse the head with removal of the larger ding upsets and walnut shell blasting to clean it up. Remember, with use, the dome of the head quickly becomes coated with a layer of carbon which smooths out many of the dings. Send it to a machine shop experienced rebuilding 911 heads and get their opinion. Jim

[H.G.P.]

Originally posted by HarryD
Kirk,

How did the cylinder wall and rings look?

1. All six cylinder walls look very good, including the two cylinders #1 with part of back of the piston broken, and #2 piston busted with holes.... head pictured above.


2. #1 piston partially broken at it's back, rings ok.


3. #2 cylinder piston with holes all over it, with rings broken.

4. All others look good except for carbon.


Jim: I'll try that, thanks.


Note: Adapter stand ring arrived today, should I try to fish out the broken piston pieces inside case on #1 and #2 from the top of the crankcase filter mesh, before opening the case?

Thanks.

[HarryD]

Originally posted by H.G.P.
1. All six cylinder walls look very good, including the two cylinders #1 with part of back of the piston broken, and #2 piston busted with holes.... head pictured above.


2. #1 piston partially broken at it's back, rings ok.


3. #2 cylinder piston with holes all over it, with rings broken.

4. All others look good except for carbon.


Jim: I'll try that, thanks.


Note: Adapter stand ring arrived today, should I try to fish out the broken piston pieces inside case on #1 and #2 from the top of the crankcase filter mesh, before opening the case?

Thanks.

Kirk,

Can you still see the hatch in the cylinders?

FWIW, whenever I am trying to recreate a mechanical disaster, I try to locate all the missing pieces and fit them together (to ensure I found them all). You should do the same to determine where the spread of the potential damage.

I hope your damage is limited.

[H.G.P.]

Originally posted by HarryD
Kirk,

Can you still see the hatch in the cylinders?

FWIW, whenever I am trying to recreate a mechanical disaster, I try to locate all the missing pieces and fit them together (to ensure I found them all). You should do the same to determine where the spread of the potential damage.

I hope your damage is limited.

No metal came out of the drain plug screen, it looks like all the pieces of the pistons (and they are relatively large piston chips), are laying visibly on top of the crank filter mesh in #1 and #2 case mesh. I think the valve top stem piece I can see laying in there also, it looks like the top of a nail head.

I'm wondering if a stretched chain could have caused this damage to both #1 and #2 being next to each other?, or perhaps the dings are from the #2 broken rocker arm?

All the cylinders are out of the car and in a box, what is a hatch?

Thanks

[maxnine11]

what is a hatch?

the cross-hatch pattern honed into the cylinder walls.

not a 911 cylinder, but a decent photo - - http://www.unruhly.net/sunruh/hare/topend/crosshatch2.jpg

[H.G.P.]

Yes, all of the cylinders appear to have them (very rookie opinion), they look very minute and fine.

[HarryD]

Originally posted by H.G.P.
Yes, all of the cylinders appear to have them (very rookie opinion), they look very minute and fine.

Good thing. You may be able to reuse your barrels with little or no reconditioning.

Are you able to find all the pieces?

[HarryD]

Out of idle curiosity, were you having smoking problems when the car was running, particularly on decelleration?

[H.G.P.]

No smoking at all during decelleration, however I could here "popping" from time to time. Also, this might be important, if I let go of the accelerator pedal abruptly after a good acceleration, I could often hear a short clatter/clashing noise as if a chain were briefly hitting on something (timing chain stretch??)

Tomorrow I will start to see what I can fetch from the crank mesh before beginning to open the case. I do not know if I can reach the pieces without opening the case, as my hand is too big. The telescopic magnet through the rod holes does nothing, as the piston/ valve pieces on the mesh screen apppear not to be metal nor attracted to the magnet.

(I really would like to have the above cylinder reconditioned/rebuilt as Jim suggested above, the exhaust studs are excellent and I don't want to have to go through the process of locating a 69 E #2 head)

[HarryD]

Originally posted by H.G.P.
No smoking at all during decelleration, however I could here "popping" from time to time. Also, this might be important, if I let go of the accelerator pedal abruptly after a good acceleration, I could often hear a short clatter/clashing noise as if a chain were briefly hitting on something (timing chain stretch??)

Tomorrow I will start to see what I can fetch from the crank mesh before beginning to open the case. I do not know if I can reach the pieces without opening the case, as my hand is too big. The telescopic magnet through the rod holes does nothing, as the piston/ valve pieces on the mesh screen apppear not to be metal nor attracted to the magnet.

(I really would like to have the above cylinder reconditioned/rebuilt as Jim suggested above, the exhaust studs are excellent and I don't want to have to go through the process of locating a 69 E #2 head)

Well, when you crack the case, with any luck you will find the rest of the pieces.

Without actually seeing the damage or hearing the noises before, I am guessing that your valve stems were worn beyond acceptable limits and it just broke off. When the machine shop disassembles the head, they can measure the valves to verify the wear, but I would budget for 12 new valves.

At this point, I would not obsess too much on the head, either it is rebuildable or it is not. As has been noted, pack it off to the machine shop and let them assess the damage and repair options. Sometimes those guys can do magic!

[jluetjen]

By the time that it is all said and done, it might just be cheaper and easier to get another set of heads. I believe that the asking prices are usually $25-$50 each with the S heads being more expensive.

Does your engine still use the original MFI? If so you'll be somewhat limited '69E or - better yet - S heads (if you replace all 6) because I believe that the bolt pattern for the MFI intakes are different for the 69's compared to the later years. The prices will still be pretty much the same. Earlier heads would fit, but a lot of them have smaller valves then your '69E and so would result in a slight performance loss, not to mention they're not set up for MFI. Since you'd need to replace the whole set to match the replacements, a better option would be to upgrade to the later '70-'77 style heads.

If you don't have the original MFI on the car, then it might be easier to just replace the heads with a set of '70-'77 heads which have the same bolt pattern and a better combustion chamber. Combined with a set of 84 or 85 mm pistons and cylinders and you'll have a 2.2 or 2.3 liter engine. Larry Sharp had a set of 2.7 heads with an asking price of $200 for them all. So if you are going to spend more then $63 per head to fix your set of 3, you'd do better to just swap out with some later heads. Not to mention you'll be able to sell your 3 (I assume) good heads on eBay for about $15 to $30 apiece.

If you go that route you can either swap out your MFI throttle bodies (and I believe stacks) for the later style, or replace the MFI with carbs (not my personal choice). In either case selling your old stuff on eBay will recoup a fair portion of your costs or more.

[H.G.P.]

Originally posted by jluetjen
By the time that it is all said and done, it might just be cheaper and easier to get another set of heads. I believe that the asking prices are usually $25-$50 each with the S heads being more expensive.

Does your engine still use the original MFI? If so you'll be somewhat limited '69E or - better yet - S heads (if you replace all 6) because I believe that the bolt pattern for the MFI intakes are different for the 69's compared to the later years. The prices will still be pretty much the same. Earlier heads would fit, but a lot of them have smaller valves then your '69E and so would result in a slight performance loss, not to mention they're not set up for MFI. Since you'd need to replace the whole set to match the replacements, a better option would be to upgrade to the later '70-'77 style heads.

If you don't have the original MFI on the car, then it might be easier to just replace the heads with a set of '70-'77 heads which have the same bolt pattern and a better combustion chamber. Combined with a set of 84 or 85 mm pistons and cylinders and you'll have a 2.2 or 2.3 liter engine. Larry Sharp had a set of 2.7 heads with an asking price of $200 for them all. So if you are going to spend more then $63 per head to fix your set of 3, you'd do better to just swap out with some later heads. Not to mention you'll be able to sell your 3 (I assume) good heads on eBay for about $15 to $30 apiece.

If you go that route you can either swap out your MFI throttle bodies (and I believe stacks) for the later style, or replace the MFI with carbs (not my personal choice). In either case selling your old stuff on eBay will recoup a fair portion of your costs or more.

OK, well I'm at a disaavantage here not really ever witness mix and matches, so forgive the upcoming amateur questions:

1. Do heads mean they come with all the valves, springs, and valve guides, and other parts together as a unit? (So all one has to do is bolt them up period) ......Or is further assembly of parts required on the head?

2. Will the different heads match my current pistons?

3. Will the current heads match my current cylinders?

4. Do the heads come with all the required studs? (The kind that will not likely break off if R&R a heat exchanger down the road?)

Thanks (My car has been modifed from MFI to carbs)

[jluetjen]

1. Do heads mean they come with all the valves, springs, and valve guides, and other parts together as a unit? (So all one has to do is bolt them up period) ......Or is further assembly of parts required on the head?

When your buying used heads -- it depends. Ideally in your sitation you'll want heads with valves. The springs and retainers I would think should be able to be moved from your hold heads to your new ones. Very often though used heads come complete with valves, springs, retainers, etc.

2. Will the different heads match my current pistons?

I'm pretty sure that any 2.0 heads will fit your pistons. If by chance you get a set of '69 2.0S heads and valves, you might want to confirm that there is adequate clearance in the valve cut-outs in the pistons. Specifically I'm talking about the diameter of the cut-outs. The depth is dependant on the cam that you are using which I assume will continue to be E cams.

3. Will the current heads match my current cylinders?

I believe that any 2.0 heads will fit your cylinders. If you move up to the 2.2-2.7 heads, you'll need cylinders of the appropriate diameter.

4. Do the heads come with all the required studs? (The kind that will not likely break off if R&R a heat exchanger down the road?)

Generally, but once again it depends on the specific situation of the heads which are being sold.

[HarryD]

Originally posted by H.G.P.
OK, well I'm at a disaavantage here not really ever witness mix and matches, so forgive the upcoming amateur questions:

1. Do heads mean they come with all the valves, springs, and valve guides, and other parts together as a unit? (So all one has to do is bolt them up period) ......Or is further assembly of parts required on the head?

2. Will the different heads match my current pistons?

3. Will the current heads match my current cylinders?

4. Do the heads come with all the required studs? (The kind that will not likely break off if R&R a heat exchanger down the road?)

Thanks (My car has been modifed from MFI to carbs)

Careful!

If you buy used heads, you will want them inspected/measured by a competent machine shop to ensure the sealing faces and valves are acceptable and the head will mate properly with your barrels.

As others have noted, there is some interchangability but, if it was me, consulting with a good tuner/mechanic would be prudent to be sure your "Cats and dogs" can live together happily.

[Jim Garfield]

Originally posted by H.G.P.
Assess my head please[/B]

Well, I'm not a psychiatrist but I'll give it a shot....You are probably depressed and suffering from anxiety due to ignoring that rattling sound on lift.

You can regain your previous chipper disposition by throwing yourself into a hobby, the more complex and mechanical the better. I would suggest something auto related and costly. This will help you overcome your feelings of guilt and help you regain your desire to shift at redline.

I don't think that I have enough time to get into the episode with the cat in the third grade at this point, but we can talk about that next Wednesday.

Good luck with it.