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'87 Carrera Targa
Old 11-30-2004, 09:40 PM
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I've worked on examples of all of these cars and if you want to do your own work, the 911 would be your best choice by far. If you're not a DIY and you've got the $$$ (and a good wrench), then go for the Boxster or a 964/993.
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Old 12-01-2004, 05:30 AM
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Wow, thanks for all the replies, I clicked send just as I was leaving work last night and found all this when I came in this morning.

A few comments on what people have said. My inference on poor brakes for the Carrera is that they are the same size as previous models but the weight was up. Also people seem to throw big reds on at the drop of a hat, hence my apparently poor assumption that they are sub par.

SCís! I knew when I wrote my original note that the SC world domination council would seek to bring me over to the dark side. Iíve nothing against SCís, and they do seem to be available cheaper, but my reasons for discounting them were:
1. Even older than a G50 87 up Carrera for daily use
2. K Jetronic (sorry CIS) is a very old system and does not appear to me, to be as user friendly or have any simple upgrades, i.e. SW chip.
3. No G50
4. All the nice oneís that (would if I were in the market now) look tempting are on the West coast

Jared (JCR), I would love to see/ride in your car. If I wasnít intending my future purchase to be a daily driver, a 72/73 2.4 S would be what I was after. I love the look of the long hoods, narrow body no rear spoiler, not even a duck tail, just the S front spoiler. Perfection!

I still donít understand what makes the 964/993ís so hard to work on. Is it the price of parts? Is it accessibility? Complexity? Pixies living in the engine compartment?

Since several people from the Metro Detroit area chimed in, is there a local evening meet around here? As I said, every couple of months I go to the local 356 club on a Saturday morning with my neighbor who has a Pre A 356, but I like to see more 911ís.

One final thought, how do people see the availability/price of parts for Carreraís, or older cars in general, changing over the next 10 Ė 15 years? I realize that there is a huge following world wide for these cars, but nothing like a 60ís Mustang for example where they are so popular I think you could build a new one from scratch.

Thanks for all the info.

P.S. Soup Dragon, Iím an Ex pat Brit, the Soup Dragon was always my favorite character in the Clangers.
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Old 12-01-2004, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Adrian Thompson
I still donít understand what makes the 964/993ís so hard to work on. Is it the price of parts? Is it accessibility? Complexity? Pixies living in the engine compartment?
Yes, it's the pixies.
Seriously, I have pulled the engines out of every version of 911 with the exception of the 964, 996 and 997. The 993 is approximately 20% more complicated than a Carrera and about 40% more complicated than an early car. More to disassemble, reassemble, and an alignment is, in my opinion, really needed after you've reassembled everything. But it's no so hard as to make the car unfit for DiY.
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Old 12-01-2004, 06:18 AM
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I've had both a 964 and a Carrea. The 964 cost me easily twice in maintence that my 87 cab has. It constantly ran the battery down if I didn't keep it hooked to a trickle charger. I was much more intimidated by all the complexity. Microswitch here microswitch there.

The 3.6 is a GREAT engine. but if you want to DIY - I'd stay with a G-50 Carrera.
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Old 12-01-2004, 06:46 AM
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Oh - I did get to be good buddies with my Mechanic with the 964 - now he only sees me when I need to do a DE tech inspection or get the AC charged...
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Old 12-01-2004, 06:47 AM
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Nice car Jeremy. Why did you upgrade the brakes? Do you take the roll bar in and out for track use?
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Adrian Thompson
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Old 12-01-2004, 06:53 AM
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Hey Adrian,

Like you and several others that have participated in this post, I have all of the responsibilities of life to take care of as well. About two years ago, I was in the same boat....trying to decide what car to buy.

Quite frankly, any of the cars are great. I finally pulled the trigger and bought a 1970 roller and I am very quickly building a street/track car....From the minute it rolled into my garage - My soul has been at rest. This may be somewhat of a dramatic statement but if you are willing to post 2 years in advance of actual purchase then you have the same disease as everyone on this board....so, I think you will understand.

IMHO, you are suffering from 'Analysis-Paralysis'. Buy whatever you can afford and I guarantee that you will love it...

Life is short - Live the dream.
Old 12-01-2004, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Adrian Thompson
Nice car Jeremy. Why did you upgrade the brakes? Do you take the roll bar in and out for track use?
Sebring is very tough on brakes - probably one of the worst tracks in the country. Three seperate areas where you are in the 100-135 area then braking hard for a turn. That and it's almost never cool here...I could go two routes - try and pull some weight off mine - or upgrade the brakes. Since I like all my creature comforts - I chose the brake route.

I know of several 3.2 Carreras (coupes and Targas) that run stock brakes fine at Sebring. I probably have a few hundred lbs more than them with the Cabriolet and the G-50...

Yes as far as the roll bar. I take it in an out for DE events. Here's a picture...
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Old 12-01-2004, 07:18 AM
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Adrian,
Just wanted to chime in about SC's. But first, I'll start with your observations:

SCís! I knew when I wrote my original note that the SC world domination council would seek to bring me over to the dark side. Iíve nothing against SCís, and they do seem to be available cheaper, but my reasons for discounting them were:
1. Even older than a G50 87 up Carrera for daily use
2. K Jetronic (sorry CIS) is a very old system and does not appear to me, to be as user friendly or have any simple upgrades, i.e. SW chip.
3. No G50
4. All the nice oneís that (would if I were in the market now) look tempting are on the West coast

1. Not sure that #1 is even an issue. Being older is not necessarily a bad thing. The 3.2's had smaller rod bolts and were prone to the same head stud failures that the SC's had...both issues that any builder would address at rebuild time. Additionally, in my dealing with DME cars, DME is more complicated when diagnosing a problem. Leads me to my second point.

2. CIS is user friendly, easy to diagnose, and rock solid reliable. Crude? Yes. However CIS systems are basically mechanical in nature and have very little that can go wrong. Chips are an arguable upgrade although I do agree they can provide some benefit...just not sure how much. CIS cars can also be cheaply upgraded to some very cool injection sytems...megasquirt is one, and the new work on this board on ITB's is another. Plenty of cheap options. Outside the chip for DME cars, you are looking at the same issues. Besides, 3.2's are heavier cars an can benefit from the improved performance...I'll get flamed for that last comment.

3. Truly the G50 is a dream to shift, but a nicely built 915 can shift very well, and seems easier for the DIY'er to maintain. Do a search on the site and you'll see plenty of guys tackling the 915 rebuild in their own garages.

4. I would not necessarily discount cars on the west coast. Buying local is ideal, but sometimes it just makes sense to either take a road trip or have the car trucked across country.

Not an SC fanatic, but for me it represented the perfect blend of creature comforts (my AC works surprisingly well..even in OKC heat), mechanical simplicity and rock solid reliability.

R/
Dustin
Old 12-01-2004, 11:06 AM
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My 2 cents: get a G50 Carrera or Boxster. The G50 is the best compromise between modern Porsche and DIY simplicty. The Boxster is modern and will, in 2 years, be selling for ~$10,000 by my estimate. The lower price and modern comforts will offset the higher maintenance.

As for the 964 and 993, my comment is this: If you were thinking of getting a 928S4, everyone would warn you how the car is complex and expensive to maintain - these 911s are it's contemporaries and equally or more complex and more expensive to boot, but it's not brought up as often because they're 911s (and not even as fast). No one that wouldn't recommend a 32-valve 928 should be recommending a 964 or 993.

That said, I'd also suggest not waiting to save for a 911 - start your Porsche experience now by getting a nice post-85.5 944 for around 5 or 6 grand. They make an excellent starter Porsche and are practical daily drivers. You can always sell it when you decide to "upgrade" to a 911.

Emanuel
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Old 12-02-2004, 01:44 AM
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My situation was not too different from yours and I chose the G-50 3.2 Carrera. It is a nice compromise in terms of price, reliability, simplicity and functionality.

The brakes are more than adequate for street use. Like Jeremy I have had some fade at DE's. In my case it is probably due to inexperience. If you find its a problem after you track it a couple of times then you can do an upgrade.

Good luck with your search.
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Old 12-02-2004, 05:21 AM
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I too like the SC for simplicity and reliability. There are many nice examples and with regular maintenance, the motor is pretty bulletproof. The '84 to '89 Carreras are great cars too. The later '87 to '89 models have the G50 trans. They are somewhat more forgiving than the 915 box, but both can be made to work very reliably.

I have owned both and cannot say that I have a strong preference. However, both of my SC's were dedicated track cars and were heavily modified. My '89 Carrrera was stock and a real beauty. I have taken both to the track. The stock Carrera was a great way to start my DE experience. The SC cost less and allowed more room in the budget for mods and track expenses.

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Old 12-02-2004, 06:50 AM
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I say go for the 993s. No matter how you slice it it's an objectively better car than any previous 911. Good AC, good heating, good brakes, good depreciation, great performance and as you said it it's the pinnacle of air cooled car.

But then you need to drive the cars.... You'll see how the older cars are so much more special.... they are not as fast, don't brake as quickly, have a crappy AC etc.... but they involve you so much.

I was in the same situation... U have to draw the line at some point.. and like you I decided that I wouldn't get anything older than an 87 G50.

After dirving all of the cars you mentioned it was a no brainer for me.
I budgeted $2k a year for reapairs/mantainance... I am well under it this year.. I will be over next...
The problem/fun with a Carrera is that is so easy to work on and to upgrade that you WILL end up modifying it and spending money on it.
You start with H4 headlights and you finish with hollow torsion bars.
Parts are cheap and help is avaliable on Rennlist and on this forum.

Again drive them all and follow your feelings.

The Carreras are NOT daily drivers by today's standard. As Nostatic said you need to be a little insane... but hey.. u live once....

PS
My Carrera is a daily driver... racing seats, no AC, poor heating... I LOVE IT!!!
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Old 12-02-2004, 07:35 AM
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I don't understand all you guys that say you have poor heat in the carreras - mine you could bake bread with, even at the lowest setting.

When I open up the heater - even with having a cabriolet - wow (and this is when I drove it from Chicago when it was 8 degrees out) Now - I don't have any issues with heat...
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Old 12-02-2004, 07:41 AM
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heat is not a problem with these cars. AC is.

As for the mythical G50, I've owned a G50 and 915 car. A well sorted 915 will shift as well or better (better feel imho) than a G50. Problem is most 915s are tired. With your budget, you could rebuild the tranny and shift linkages, and have a "new" drivetrain.

I don't think you should limit yourself to 87 and newer, as an 87 is still an "old" car. At this point in their life it is less about the model year and more about the condition and upkeep. From 78 until 89 they are very similar cars, and if you want to go that route, find the best example of any of those years that you can.
Old 12-02-2004, 07:52 AM
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Poor heating was a bad choice of wording.... I cannot seem to regulate the heat... I either freeze or it's really hot. Plus it gets hotter as you go along and colder as you sit at the traffic lights. Granted that's air cooling for you... I just do not think it's comparable to any modern set up.

As per the G50.... you need to draw the line somewhere so why not there. And a G50 is not that much more exp than a 86 Carrera (maybe 1k).
I just know the G50 can take a 3.6 Varioram (ahahahah)!
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Old 12-02-2004, 08:40 AM
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That's why I think you should drive many. I personally like the shift pattern of the 901 better than the 915 - it seems to make much more sense. If you are going to have the notchiness - may as well have in a better driving pattern. That being said - YOU are the one that will need to make that determination. As 911teo said - the g-50 will accept the 3.6 (or 3.8) with very little effort.

The market says that the G-50 cars can command a premium - you decide whether it's worth it.

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Old 12-02-2004, 08:45 AM
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