I don't know about comparing different waxes but I think what makes the difference is a compounding and polishing step regardless of what products you use. The 5 step process I described above was necessary because the paint on my Jetta had never been polished. It had only been waxed/cleaned by hand.

The Porter Cable and the Menzerna polishes are what did wonders. I chose Klasse for the final finish but I could have chosen any number of waxes or other acrylic sealeants.

And now that this car is "done", in six months all I have to do is hit it with Menzerna Final Polish and then apply Klasse again. I should be able to do a wash/polish/Klass in less than an hour.

I keep seeing the reverse being recommended - that you put it on the whole car, let it dry (even overnight), and then buff it off. In the end I used the Sonus spritz to get off what I couldn't buff off by hand.

For someone who wants a world class shine in a minimum amount of time I'd highly recommend a Porter Cable, Menzerna Final Polish, and Klass All-In-One. If your paint is in nice shape this is all you should need to do. This can easily be done in an hour. If the paint is tired you could add claybarring as a first step with Menzerna Intensive Polish as the second step. This first steps would only need to be done the first time though.

I agree that you need to make it smoooooth! That's what "compounds" and abrasive "polishes" do. Also what toothpaste does, in part.

Does anyone worry about the silicone in some of these products.

Michael

I strongly recommend the clay-bar treatment before you do the Meguiars 3-step.

I did it to my car a few weeks ago, then applied P21S' polish/system and the end result was stunning. It's worth all the extra labour. My car's paint feels like pure silk... not a single imperfection.

Have you ever been at event somewhere and the next day read the newspaper account of the event?. It often seems different than what you thought Have 10 different random average people observe the same event. Then have them write what they saw and you will get 10 different stories on what happened.

You could have a person (or many) with poor eyesight in your random average test group and not know it. Everybody likes to think thye have pretty good eyesight, no one knows what it is like to see thru somebody elses eyes.

Get 10 people who detail cars for a living in your test group and you will have a better chance of accutrate results. That is why I suggested you take a look at some forums out there that have detail experts on it like detail city . I would trust their loose opinion much more than the results of a single blind study by "average joes' or an average study by 'blind joes'

I have only done 5 different vehicles with the 10 step process but I have a lot of 'average joes' telling me they shine a lot. Some people have actually put masking tape down the middle of their hood and done each side differently. I don't have the time for that sort of experimentation. I just took some expert opinions off the aforementioned detailing forums and tried it. It worked for me!

I try not to use any products with silicone.

KB

Hey even if it doesn't settle anything I like pictures so let's see 'em.

Here is my '84 (original paint) posted today in a different thread. Paint has faded from years in the Florida sun (before I came along):
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1102904188.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1102904250.jpg
Here is the '96 993 (also original). Picked this up for $25.5K the car had been sitting outside of his 2 car garage and hadn't been waxed for a while the paint was oxidized but it is now being well taken care of:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1102904533.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1102904590.jpg

Kilodawg,
Great looking car!

Thanks to all who described their procedures. I guess I'm leaning towards the Meguiars 3-step, with the addition of the clay bar as the initial step (step 0). Maybe someday, I'll try some of the more exotic and complex treatments described. One final question/poll, which I may start a new thread on: Which is better liquid wax or paste wax...? I've always used paste wax in the past, but I have a feeling liquid wax is preferred by most...

You may or may not need a clay bar. They tell you how to doa test of the surface. If it lives in a garage probably not required. If it sits out, then it might need that 1x year or more.

The critical thing is to do a side by side comparison, and to have -- at minimum -- a single blind test. Selected experts are fine to use but ONLY IF it is a blind test. Placebo effects are extremely powerful, and if the experts know which is which then you are just kidding yourself.

Average Joes - or even average Schmoes - are quite capable of seeing gloss and sheen differences. The thing is -- they usually don't look for them. And if they do see the difference, they probably don't care.

One more tidbit -- the Meguiars NXT looks like a winner. I tried it on my SUV and it sure seemed glossy. I'll let it sit in the rain a few more months and see how long it lasts. IF it passes both tests, I'll try it on the 911.

Kilodawg,
That Zaino sure did the trick for you! WhooHoo.

Randy, NXT has a lot of followers too.
I was just trying to say I don't believe any pros are using the Meg 3 step. There are a lot of better products out there, by Meguires and others that are just as easy to put on but not marketed for the masses. A confusing array of choices no doubt. Highly subjective - for sure. One clear winner - not.

Is the 3 step for clear coat or paint? remember the solid color porsches are single stage paint and the metalic are clearcoated.

Craig

Is this true? I was under the impression that after a certain model year, virtually all posrches were clearcoated? Mine is a 1987 guards red... clearcoat or no?

My previous 911, an '86 in Guards Red, was single stage paint.

I did not care for the Mequires 3 step process on that car (years ago when I tried it) and basically gave away this stuff. It was just too hard to work with as compared to more 'pro' products. I get the best results with 3M Hand Glaze followed by Blitz Wax (or P21S concours wax) on Guards Red. This is just my opinion...

I'd have to agree that many processes for getting a good shine on a car can be pretty subjective. As a paid detailer (along with hanging out with concours guys for many years and a few years of concours judge schools), I've had good results with some pretty simple products (for example, 3M Hand Glaze has done wonders for me on many cars for many years).

I've always thought that one should try a few different products and processes to see what works best on your car's paint condition.

Jay
90 964

Ditto on the 3M Hand Glaze and FWIW my '96 993 in Guards Red is NOT clear coated

I don't think anyone responded just yet to your question... Again, neither is better, it's just what you prefer. My prefered products are paste waxes. Other people may have a favorite that is a liquid.

Kilodawg said we gotta post pics, so here's a shameless pic of my old wreck...

http://www.jays911.com/images/C2%202004%20Cover.jpg

(with 3M Hand Glaze and P21S wax)

Jay
90 964

As folks have said, the critical part of the equation is the prep....Even the least expensive carnuba wax will look astounding on a finish that has been properly prepped before the wax goes on....

I've had the best luck over the years with 3M's products, and I've used them all....I use a machine glaze on the big panels, and a hand glaze on the small areas, like around the windshield wipers....

A good wash with Dawn to remove the old wax, clay bar treatment if needed, glazing with 3M's Perfect-It glazes, followed by two coats of good carnuba wax.....

Lots of companies promote the "wet finish," but this comes from the prep, not the wax itself....By properly removing swirl marks and surface scratches, you'll get a paint finish that you could read the name off of a jet at 30K feet! :eek:

"Highly subjective - for sure. One clear winner - not."

I think the so-called 3-step uses their lowest end products. Still pretty good, but their other stuff, pro or higher end consumer, will be better.

I agree it is subjective but that doesn't mean one cannot find a clear winner (or more likely, find that several products work equally well). You can use the accepted scientific techniques -- well worked out in psychology and behavior -- to find the clear winner or if there is one, even in subjective areas.

I like the Meguairs, because it is not too spendy, is easy to find locally, and they give a lot of support by phone or over the web. They are good for road cars (which need something that lasts, not just looks shiny in a museum). There may be better things out there, but I haven't found anything, and have not been inspired to look too hard (beyond the tests outlined above in this thread and posted a year or two ago).

My emphasis is to do your own test in your own environment. LA climates going to be a lot different from what we have here - much more UV effects and pollution that eats away at your wax. Different paint and paint colors can affect what is best also.

The single most important thing you can do for your car is to put it in a garage when you aren't driving it. Here, a wax job can last 2- or even 3 years in a garage when not driven, but only 3-4 months if left out (different cars compared in W. Oregon, one a '73, one a '75 but both with aftermarket paint jobs of different colors). For a garaged car my main finish issue is rock chips and insect damage.

A final issue is whether you want the car to look what I would call 'natural' or to look super-glossy (like the magazine ads) - I don't like that later look. But the car ought to have a nice lustre to it.

At the risk of potentially opening another can of worms, why do people seem to specifically mention "Dawn" to other brands of dish soap for removing old wax? We've goy some "Joy" around the house that I'm planning to use...:)

Since I've done A LOT of dishes in my lifetime, it's been my experiece that Dawn is a great grease/animal fat cutter. It seems to work better than other brands of dish soap.

Since it's so good at grease removal, it's gotten the reputation for removing wax on cars without being too harsh (like an auto degreaser chemical would be) on the paint.

Maybe someone has a more technical reason for Dawn's reputation as a wax stripper...

Here is a synopsis of the various steps. Some are required based on the condition of the paint and some are optional based on what you want to achieve.

1) Compounding - this step is for sanding out surface imperfections like haze and scatches with an abrasive liquid or paste. The step could be further divided into compounding with a more aggressive and then less aggressive product. On my jetta I used 3M Fine Cut rubbing compound in the worst spots and then Menzerna Intensive polish over the whole car. Intensive Polish is a compound that almost behaves like a polish.

2a) Polishing (physical) - This is like compounding but with a super fine grit. I used the Menzerna Final Polish. They advertise it as being able to remove 2000 grit sanding marks.

2b) Polishing (chemical) - The "non-abrasive" polishes you see advertised do their polishing by chemically treating the paint. Some advertise themselves as being able to take the hard edge off a scratch which decreases the reflectivity of scratches and imperfections.

3) Glazing - I didn't use a glaze but I may in the future on the 911. A glaze is like make-up for the car. A glaze fills in any scratches and imperfections in the paint.

4) Waxing/sealing - This is the final step that everybody is familiar with.

5) Quick detailing - If you've never used a quick detailer then get one that is compatible with your wax. On my daily driver I can wash the car and then spritz it down with the quick detailer in 10 minutes and the car looks like I spent 2 hours waxing the car. I use Sonus Acrylic Spritz since it's compatible with Klasse. Use a quick detailer that is compatible with your wax.

The hard part is that there are lots of hybrid products out there. One manufacturer's polish may have fillers that also work like a glaze. Another manufacturer's compound works like a polish. And many glazes usually work as a polish as well. Personally I think one should stay away from most of the "all in one" or "cleaner/wax" type products especially if you want a top grade finish. It's probably safest to stick with a single system from the same manufactuer.

You also have to do the steps in order. Polishing/compounding will remove glaze and wax so they need to be done first. You should never polish or glaze and then not wax or seal the paint with your final step because you would be leaving the paint relatively unprotected.

Claybars are now the rage but are they more effective than a compounding step? I think claybarring might be redundant if you are going to compound and polish the car.

We've talking about all these steps. The number of steps required depends greatly on the condition of the paint. For a garage queen or a new car you could probably get away with a non-abrasive polish and wax. If the paint shows some wear you could polish with an abrasive, glaze, and then wax.

Also, once you work the paint into good condition with compounding and polishing then maintaining the finish should be relatively quick and easy. If the paint is cared for then compounding and abrasive polishing shouldn't be needed again for a long time if ever again. If the car is a daily driver and parked outside then you may want to wax every three months and then polish/wax every six months to a year if needed.