Levels of 911 Power

[rdane]

Interesting to see the differences in power on the same dyno. Even better to actually drive them. The 20 to 25 bumps in HP/torgue make a big difference in cars as light as 2400#s.

red is a 3.0 CIS with 20/21 cams and SSIs/ blue is the same engine as a 3.4


How about a 3.0 Euro motor and a 3.6 Varioram comparison?
These came out of and went inot the same 2400# SC..Craig911's.




The red a 3.4 CIS / the blue is a 3.2 Carrera with late model Varioram intake and Motec engine managment. Check out the varioram influence here on Randy's 3.2 and on Craig's 3.6 torque curve posted farther down. Nice torque bumps low in the rev range.




This is my 3.4 CIS in blue and Alex's '95 3.6 in red.

Jack Olsen';s BBII drops in here nicely at 243 HP and 216 ft/# of torque. I could add the dyno but didn't want to skew what we are looking at.

The 3.6 numbers are pretty much what Timmins has posted on his web site.



3.6..Alex's '95 non varioram in blue and a later engine with varioram, Craig's, in red. The bumps at low rpm of varioram is clear here and is easier to see in the upper 3.2 varioram with Motec after looking at this one.



Blue is Alf's 3.2 with cat bypass, SW chip and sport muffler
Red is Craig's Varioram/RSR cam/custom exhaust 3.6
Green (i think) is a 3.2 with Motec and stock 3.2 induction
Purple is 3.4 20/21 cam CIS




A better look at BBII which shows the 964 engine chipped as dropping in right between the 3.4 and the later '95 3.6 for power and torque.

Ralph's 3.5 in green. My 3.4 in the highlighted red and black and BBII in the blue and red.




Jack's BBI in red and blue and Ralph's 3.5 in green overlayed.

My 1972 911T has a 964 3.6, which puts out 247 hp in its stock configuration. With B&B headers, a modified (to eliminate the drone) B&B muffler, and the new No Bad Days Racing chip, it's doing very well. I was surprised, honestly, since it's doing the kind of numbers that Steve Timmins promises on his site. Usually, I scale a little ways back for all 'advertising claims.'

[jluetjen]

Thanks for compiling this Rdane! It's going to take a while to internalize what I'm looking at.

[Kurt B]

Wow, this is one for the archives!
Nice.

[rdane]

Here is some more subjective and hard data for you......
The numbers are actual rear wheel hP and measured weights except for the Ferrari Stardale. The lesson? Drop weight and add HP!

3.0 liter '79 2625# 183 rwhp 14.34 lb/hp


anything under 10# per HP is FAST...imho


BBII 2400lbs ( it's gotta be less) and 243hp 9.88 lb/hp


3.4 CIS 2200# 223 rwhp 9.86 lb/hp


996 TT has 383hp and 3515lbs 9.17 lbs/hp


ZO6 our dyno 350rwhp, 3100lbs 8.85 lb/hp


Craig's 3.6 weight 2455# 280 rwhp 8.76 lb/hp


GT3 on "our dyno 368rwhp 3043# 8.26 lb/hp


Alex's '72 has 268rwhp and 2100lbs 7.83 lb/hp


Stradale 3000#s and 392hp 7.65 lb/hp

[Craig 930 RS]

Great stuff.

Thanks for compiling genuine, concrete, and truly comparable numbers...IMO we need more of this sort of data gathering and analysis on the Pelican board.

P.S. Hey Dane, you took one of my lower runs for the Varioram graph! (There are 280.5 and 277 runs - amongst about 15 other runs - on Alex's dyno PC)

[rdane]

Dude, I didn't use race gas runs for comparison's
I also didn't use my best runs just to give a better comparison on BBII since I doubt Jack was on race gas.

But thanks Craig, it is fun stuff.

Only the Stradale #s are not from our dyno.

We are missing Ralph's 3.5 or something similar and a "typical" hot rod 3.2 Motronic. Hopefully Alf will fill that slot shortly.

We should and could fill in the 2.6/3.0 numbers from the same dyno.

[mede8er]

Numbers don't lie.....GREAT info here.........Thanks....

My goal 2500#....300 hp.........

[Craig 930 RS]

One could line up 99 bottles of beer on the middle of Dane's torque curve wall. Man, that is FLAT. Same for the upper range of his HP -

[Craig 930 RS]

I had the runs last Saturday that resulted in 3 MORE lbs tq and 3 less HP than the runs with race gas. Just being particular here ;-) with wanting the best run when the engine wasn't heat soaked.

Just goes to show what race gas WON'T get ya in many cases.
Interesting to note - from a statistical standpoint - that my 'freshest' runs were within the 1% range while we were at the dyno - 3hp/3lb ft tq.

[rdane]

Craig take a look at your 275 run with the group overlay. There is a 2hp (est) spike on the end from engaging the clutch early. That is the kind of dyno's I throw out of my own info if it shows on both HP and Torgue. Jack has a spike on the end of his dyno as well.

Easy to see a few HP that isn't there when it happens.

[jluetjen]

What's the conversion from MPH (3rd graph) to HP?

[rdane]

John sorry about that one...they printed the wrong graph. But my dyno is the same throughout so you can take a look at the 3.4 HPs on the other graphs. Alex's 3.6 is also shown on other graphs below that one. So the comparison should be easy for hp as I have used the same dyno run on both the 3.4 and Alex's 3.6 through out.

[Craig 930 RS]

Right - that's another reason why not to use that 275 chart.

This isn't the 278 chart I showed you on Saturday - which was a smoother run and also had higher HP & TQ - and no spike on the end. The result: Accurate numbers.

You & I are sticklers on this stuff - just holding you to our words ;-)

Dane, can you post the charts for A/F ratio - it would be interesting to see Alex's Unichip A/F ratio compared to my GIAC 993 chip.

[dean]

Originally posted by mede8er
Numbers don't lie.....GREAT info here.........Thanks....

My goal 2500#....300 hp.........

#'s can lie.

I would like to know if all the weights are with a full tank and driver. It makes a big diff in the power to weight. And are the HP #'s all RWHP?

Here is mine.

Full tank and driver. 2955 Lbs with 330 RWHP.

Oh yea it's a turbo, it doesn't count

Dean

[rdane]

Fair enough just didn't have a good 278 chart. We can get together after the holidays and make some copies off the machine.

I only kept a few of the duplicate sheets. Alex has his A/F ration. Nice straight line IIRC. The unichip allowed Alexof CC to reprogram the fuel map (which is what the problem was) which also filled in the graph on the dyno.

[rdane]

Originally posted by dean
I would like to know if all the weights are with a full tank and driver. It makes a big diff in the power to weight. And are the HP #'s all RWHP?

Bad info in and it is bad info out. Make your own comparisons.


Numbers are all RWHP from our local dyno. Only the Ferrari and BBII are exceptions...as their RWHP #s came from else where.

Car weights are what I was given or what was posted, no clue on gas load but I think all are without driver. My 2200# is an estimate with 1/4 tank of gas and no driver starting from real numbers before the ongoing body work.

These are about as straight up numbers as I have seen anywhere for comparison of our cars.

People want to make comparisons. I would suggest a measured amount of gas in the tank, but a number in gallons either way (I ma 5 gallons I believe). Weight measured on a certified scale (we use the local land fill) and a Dynojet 248C for RWHP.

I only posted the weight comparison becasue we have many of the actual cars and their dyno #s.

[Craig 930 RS]

Can't do these comparisons with driver incl. A big variable (100lbs? or more).

Fuel level is a good one to standardize - I think the trend may be toward an empty-ish tank.

[dean]

Pesonally I like to compare weights with a full tank. It would be much more accurate. I also think it should be with a driver. You can't drive without one.

Those two things add about 350 lbs to the figures.

Dean

[Texas Turbo]

Great post, rdane! These numbers are very interesting to look at and do provide a good baseline for comparison. A lot could be learned by studying this data.

However, in order be fair to both car and the name of science, these tests really should be run on the same day and on the same dyno. That would allow the atmospheric conditions to act as a control on the experiment and provide data on the dyno that could be reliably compared.

Y'all should consider a dyno day that represents every major category of our beloved 911s and create a post like this beauty for the archives??? (just don't forget 930s

Again, rdane, thanks for the great post.

TT

p.s. do the dyno day and take LOTS of pics.

[Craig 930 RS]

Most of these are the exact same dyno we all use up here in the Seattle area -

When I get home I have all sorts of 930 dyno sheets from this dyno that'll blow your socks off! 418 RWHP etc ;-)