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Doesn't want/need a 3.6L
 
Carrera3.5L's Avatar
 
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3.2L to 3.5L Dyno RESULTS

Mission Accomplished!!! The 3.5L Motronic motor running on 91 octane gas exceeded my expectations! To say I am pleased is an understatement.

The baseline 3.2L was 199 rwhp @ 6,200 rpm and 182 ft/lb torque as measured on Vision Motorsport's Dynojet 248C in early September.

The 3.5L Motronic motor, on the same dyno and still running 91 octane pump gas here in California made:

246 rwhp and 224 ft/lb of torque!

If you ASSUME 15% driveline loss, that equates to 289 crank horsepower and 263 ft/lb of torque.

12 runs were made today, and once again I have Steve Wong to thank for making the trek down and fine tuning everything. He hooked up his lap top and made fuel and timing changes after every run.

The first run was 239.2 rwhp and 214.7 torque and then Steve went to work. Every run got progressively better as fuel and timing were adjusted and by runs 7, 8, 9, 10 everything was as dialed in as it was going to get. Here are those numbers:

#7 - 245.1 rwhp & 223.9 torque
#8 - 246.0 rwhp & 224.0 torque
#9 - 245.1 rwhp & 224.3 torque
#10 - 244.8 rwhp & 224.5 torque

Steve then played around some more and it was too much, the last two runs showed the motor had hit the wall and wasn't going to spit out any more power.

I don't have a scanner to post the graphs but Steve has the disc and will post the graphs later (he is on his way back home to LA) and also overlay the 3.2L baseline vs. 3.5L current to show the difference.

Special thanks to my buddy (and owner) Dwain Dement at Vision Motorsports and for Nick's hard work in setting up the dyno and running the car till we had enough. Here are some selected pics to enjoy from the dyno day at Vision Motorsports until you can see the graphs:

Vision's 935 conversion coming along nicely




Brand new 996 GT2 (yes, it's real) being stripped bare to become a dedicated race car:




Vision's 996 GT3 Cup car getting ready for the 2005 24 Hours of Daytona. The car's nickname is "Spot" and you can easily see why. Very easy to pick out at night!:




Vision's 993 twin-turbo race car. Consistent top POC, PCA & NASA runner. 668 rwhp on the dynojet:




Oh yeah, I almost forgot, the real reason why we were there today. 3.5L beauty:




Steve Wong and Nick from Vision discussing strategy:




Okay Nick, you're almost at the rev limiter!!!




Steve Wong installing the chip after the runs were done:



Maybe there is a bit more power to wring out as the mileage on the motor accrues (it's only 1,200 right now) and the motor loosens up a bit more. We'll see.

Guys, I think this is representative that a 3.4/3.5 can make 3.6 type power, be reliable and be easily smog legal (in my case just removing the headers). No quirks or drivability issues and it looks pretty close to original.

I am looking forward to the next 150K miles of hopefully trouble-free driving.

Ralph
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1988 Carrera w/ 3.5L Twin-Plug

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Old 12-29-2004, 03:47 PM
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Good job!

289
Old 12-29-2004, 03:51 PM
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Somewhere in the Midwest
 
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Awesome Ralph! And a very nice job to Steve! I can't wait to get his magic into my 3.4!
Old 12-29-2004, 03:53 PM
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Way to go guys!
-Chris
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Old 12-29-2004, 04:08 PM
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I bet you have a smile on your face - congrats Ralph - I am really happy for you.
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Current Whips: 1989 944S2 GC Coilovers, M030 Sways, Fikse - | The S2 is FOR SALE | - 2003 996 Twin Turbo - 36K miles - Lapis Blue/Grey
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Old 12-29-2004, 04:09 PM
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Still Doin Time
 
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You go son!! Makes me feel all tingly about my 3.4 build!!

-Now where in the h--l did I put that $8k I had laying around here for this project....I know it's here somewhere.......
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Old 12-29-2004, 04:12 PM
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Yeah - think the price of 3.2's just went up...
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Current Whips: 1989 944S2 GC Coilovers, M030 Sways, Fikse - | The S2 is FOR SALE | - 2003 996 Twin Turbo - 36K miles - Lapis Blue/Grey
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Old 12-29-2004, 04:12 PM
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Excellent Ralph, you deserve it after all the dedication and hard work, congratulations!
It's good to see you put the little hp bracket by the AFM rubber mount, I knew that would give a few extra hp's.
Great job!
J.P.
Old 12-29-2004, 04:17 PM
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Was Loren on his way; did he get stuck in traffic?
J.P.
Old 12-29-2004, 04:19 PM
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One question, I havent follow the entire project but I am curious of the total cost $ vs the Total cost of a 3.6 swap installation and all ?
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Old 12-29-2004, 04:31 PM
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Doesn't want/need a 3.6L
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by jpahemi
Was Loren on his way; did he get stuck in traffic?
J.P.
I think Loren must have made a wrong turn. Too bad, although I'm sure he'll believe that my motor is ready to blow with the chip in there.

Ralph
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Old 12-29-2004, 04:34 PM
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MBruns for President
 
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Man - Loren and Steve W at the same dyno - you could sell that on pay per view!
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Current Whips: 1989 944S2 GC Coilovers, M030 Sways, Fikse - | The S2 is FOR SALE | - 2003 996 Twin Turbo - 36K miles - Lapis Blue/Grey
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Old 12-29-2004, 04:36 PM
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Doesn't want/need a 3.6L
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by juan ruiz
One question, I havent follow the entire project but I am curious of the total cost $ vs the Total cost of a 3.6 swap installation and all ?
Juan, if you are doing the work yourself and can buy parts at wholesale like I can, this motor can be duplicated for around $10K bare bones and $12K if you add in all the "extras" that I did. Alot of those costs are "extras" like a new starter ring gear, muffler straps, engine mounts, ultrasonic cleaning oil cooler, cad plating, powdercoating, ceramic coating headers, and the list goes on.

I would say $10K is bare bones without the above and maybe without some of the extra machine work I did (boattailing, shuffle pins, mooning cylinders, etc).

Ralph

EDIT: This assumes you are starting with a 3.2L motor. If you have an SC, I think it will be a wash for a 3.4/3.5 vs. a 3.6 in cost because you also need to get the 3.2L 74.4mm crank and 3.2L rods.
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Last edited by Carrera3.5L; 12-29-2004 at 10:11 PM..
Old 12-29-2004, 04:44 PM
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So you are saying that is cheaper to go this route than installing a 3.6 ? for about the same hp ?
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10.76@139-1/4 mile
0-1 mile 193MPH
Old 12-29-2004, 04:46 PM
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Doesn't want/need a 3.6L
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by juan ruiz
So you are saying that is cheaper to go this route than installing a 3.6 ? for about the same hp ?
Juan, I have no idea how much a 3.6L conversion really is. I think a USED motor is in the $8K-$10K range plus the conversion pieces, exhaust system, additional oil cooling, software issues that need to be resolved. It seems to really add up quick. Let the 3.6L guys chime in with their costs, I am really only guessing.

Ralph

EDIT: I don't want to make this a debate as to what is better, that has been beaten to death. For the record, I believe a 3.6L conversion is a better starting point IF you tear down the used motor you buy and update the issues, namely rod bolts, head studs (if 964), valve springs, etc.

I am merely pointing out that a 3.4 or 3.5 may be a CHEAPER way to go with similar power output. This is NOT a stressed 3.5L motor.

There are alot of people who have the misconception that you can't make decent power while retaining common plenum Motronic, 91 octane and smog compliant. I think 246 rwhp is nothing to sneeze at with these constraints.
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Last edited by Carrera3.5L; 12-29-2004 at 05:00 PM..
Old 12-29-2004, 04:53 PM
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I think core engines are 7.5k plus all the additional pieces for the conversion, I will like someone to post their 3.6 project cost, if indeed a 3.5 is cheaper that a 3.6 this should open a new avenue for people with less money to spend. very interesting if you ask me

Edit. Just curious my self, and the motronics supported our turbo project up to 600rwhp, a very good system.
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10.76@139-1/4 mile
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Old 12-29-2004, 05:01 PM
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Well, here's the first scan. More to come, including comparisons to before when the motor was a 3.2, and an interesting comparison to a 3.6 motor chipped with headers

Old 12-29-2004, 05:10 PM
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Don't forget, adapting a 3.6 to an early chassis can get pricy, with wiring harnesses at $500 and computer stuff & labor and...
Old 12-29-2004, 05:15 PM
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Ralph's car before and after. Blue lines are before when it was a chipped 3.2 with a premuffler and Dansk sport muffler. Red lines are as it is now as a chipped 3.5 twin plug:

Old 12-29-2004, 05:23 PM
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This is how I calculated your HP guess:
A friend's 3.2 with stock cam, chipped with headers and Flowmaster = 213 rwhp
Added 10% for displacement difference = 21 hp.
I believe your engine still has higher actual compression than his engine -- 12 hp for hone, actual compression increase and internal attention to detail.


So what do I get for an accurate guess? The guess was 247.5
I had guessed right on the money Rdane's HP for his 3.4

So ---- WAY TO GO! One hell of an engine.

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Old 12-29-2004, 05:26 PM
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