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Biff,
I'm doing the same upgrade, now.

You might get lucky. I did not and had to buy the low friction mounts. One side of my car may be tweaked (OR maybe an a-arm slightly bent), because even with the low friction mounts, I'm still fighting some binding on one side.

Good luck,

doug

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Old 05-12-2005, 07:04 AM
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I thought I'd add another trick to this excellent thread. But first, thanks, Rob - I've been refering to your thread as I do the same project on my '88.

I'm also using the Elephant Polybronze bushings and rear mounts. I started reassembling everything on the car yesterday, and the driver's side went together perfectly. Took about 10 minutes and the fit could not have been better - absolutely no slop in any direction and zero binding.

Went to the second side and had major binding. BTW, this is a 2-owner, low mileage, never-been wrecked car. After about an hour of trying every trick in the book iincluding:

-slowly tightening while tapping on everything to get the self-aligning washers to find their spot.

-reassembling everything several times with the hardware in different locations each time.

-torquing the front and rear mounts separately, together, and in every possible sequence.

-loosening the crossmember on the first side to let everything shift

-prying, wedging, finnessing, tapping, pushing, pulling, twisting, adjusting, lubricating, etc. etc. etc.,

I decided I must have a bent control arm. Pulled everything off, checked the end mounts for parallel with calipers against an aluminum straightedge, in 8 separate locations around the mounts, and the arm appears to be perfect - within .006" everywhere.

Put it all back together and tried once more. I could get down to about 1/4 turn from being fully torqued on the rear mount and it would suddenly get really tight. Then I noticed that the crossmember itself was squeezing closed at that point, so I tried Rob's shim idea to fill the gap:



No change, same result. I must have torqued and untorqued that bolt a hundred times, each time getting a little better, but it would still lock up at the very end.

SO... after FIVE HOURS I quit for the day, got a shower, went to dinner and a movie with my lovely bride.

Then this morning I went at it again. The Elephant co-linear rear mount was at it's limit for tilting downward toward the front as were the self-aligning washers. It really seemed like the entire crossmember was just getting to be too high and throwing the alignment of the bushings beyoud their "wiggle room". I decided to shim between the crossmember and the body.

So I pulled the big bolt once more and found some suitable shims in my parts bins (actually old Honda race bike transmission shims from 28 years ago - never throw anything away!). Perfect diameter to fit around the boss in the body, total thickness about .080". Slipped them in, torqued it down and it's damn near perfect. Not quite as slick as the first side, maybe slightly tighter than Chuck's video that shows how the arm should drop.

Just wanted to add to the knowledge base. Here's a pic:

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Old 09-18-2005, 09:12 AM
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Bumb to document at home. Thanks for the well put together how too.
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Old 09-19-2005, 08:59 AM
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This thread kicks aassss. I can't wait to try this winter.

David
Old 09-19-2005, 09:11 AM
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Rob, thanks again for this thread.

With respect to your ride quality statements, who spec'ed the valving for your old custom valved shocks, and who for your new ones? you mentioned that the new ones were less stiff, can you distinguish compression damping from rebound in that?
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Old 09-19-2005, 11:13 AM
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I've the indentical setup on the 930 (as well it is close to the 911 3.6 I had) as Rob.......simply the best setup I've experienced on a 911.

So easy to drive at the limit on track, decent on the street.....happiness on four wheels.
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Old 09-19-2005, 11:48 AM
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Thanks for the post and all the pics! I hadn't really understood how the suspension all worked, as I've never done any suspension work, and only kinda knew how the coilover type system worked. Torsion bars were a little of an obscurity to me, but now I see how they mount (I understand how they work... they resist twisting) and how the setup all works.

I'll be getting a hands-on of the front suspension coming up real soon when I disassemble it all and replace the front suspension pan.
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Old 09-19-2005, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by KobaltBlau
Rob, thanks again for this thread.

With respect to your ride quality statements, who spec'ed the valving for your old custom valved shocks, and who for your new ones? you mentioned that the new ones were less stiff, can you distinguish compression damping from rebound in that?
I hope this thread is able to save a few headaches, but it looks like Wavey went through some of the same fun as me. Congratulations on getting yourself out of the woods and into the land of smooth-moving suspensions, it's worth the extra time spent to do it right

Since this thread, I actually pulled my front struts and raised the spindles to ~48mm, and had them decambered 1.8 degrees. My old shocks were custom-valved by Powertech, in NJ. The current setup was custom-valved by Steve Weiner at Rennsport Systems, and both the rebound and compression are softer in the new setup.

Honestly, it's hard to make a direct comparison between any specific components in the different setups, since the only common components are the sway bars. I changed literally everything else.
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Last edited by MuffinMan; 09-19-2005 at 03:53 PM..
Old 09-19-2005, 03:47 PM
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Great thread and well deserving of a bump. I sat enthralled for 45 min. reading it. Hope all is still well with the car!

ianc
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Old 03-28-2006, 08:43 PM
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I am doing this same bit to my car right now.

I too had a binding issue on the RH a-arm. It would be free till final torque of the rear bolt. I tried shimming to no avail. I then noticed as I was taking out the bolt for the umpteenth time that it seemed to wobble when it was coming out. Pulled it and took a closer look and the bolt is BENT. I am using the ER PB bushings with stock retainers. I will pick up a new bolt and post if this is truly my problem.

As a side note I found a trick to use when shimming the control arm ends for the new bearing races. I was having trouble with the shims wrinkling up when pressing the races on. All 4 of mine took one .004 and one .002 shim to be nice and tight. My trick was to take the .004 shim which was on the outside and snip the corners off of the shim. This prevented the corner of the shim from hanging up on the bearing race. I also wrapped the shim stack with tape at the bottom and put a ty-wrap on the top to hold them tight as the race came down. After the race was about half-way on I would cut the ty-wrap, remove the tape and apply Loctite 620 before pressing it the rest of the way.
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Old 09-15-2006, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grady Clay View Post
* * *
When not replacing the ball joints, it is desirable to add
a few drops of hypoid gear oil past the pin and work
the ball joint all around.
example pic:




[15 ml of non-Swepco gear oil per ball joint courtesy of a local Architect]
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Last edited by RWebb; 03-20-2009 at 01:48 PM..
Old 03-12-2009, 07:47 PM
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WOW... I spent hours with mine (bushings), got them real close - while on the jack stands, but never thought about the spacers deal. Now, after hundreds of miles they're free as they should.

I love this forum... just awesome!!!!!!!!
Old 03-13-2009, 03:46 AM
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I just found this thread and some of it is 5 years old and it is amazing and it warrants to be brought to the top again.
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Old 09-03-2010, 10:26 AM
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Doing research and therefore bringing it to the top once more. Great thread!! Thanks Muffin Man!
Old 10-02-2010, 07:35 AM
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I'm glad I found this thread!

I've got a question...and forgive me if it's a dumb one. I'm relatively new to 911s but I've been around racing and cars for a while. The car I've got has a nice weltmeister rear sway bar that the original owner installed. But the front sway bar is stock. Isn't this kinda backwards as (I believe in a car which tends to naturally over-steer) you'd want the rears a bit softer than the fronts to induce a touch of understeer? Or are Porsches different from all the front engined cars I've raced?

Depending on the feedback, I'm probably gonna do what Rob and all the front upgraded guys did.

Any input would be appreciated.

Karaya
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Old 10-22-2010, 05:01 AM
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Depends on how you like your car to handle. Stiffening the front relative to the rear will shift the balance towards understeer. The front and rear sway bars have different motion ratios (lever arms) so it is hard to make a direct comparison. Also, the torsion bars are different sizes and have different motion ratios. Also, the front and rear have vastly different kinematics and therefore roll centers.

You see where this is going. Basically, with no sway bars, the rear is a bit softer than it should be for carrying as big a percentage of the total weight as it does.
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Old 10-22-2010, 10:03 AM
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Hi Flieger,

Thanks for your input. I was speaking in general terms. For example, given a car with 50-50 weight distribution (everything else being overlooked like tires, tire pressures, spring rates, dampers, etc.) but it oversteers...you'd soften the rear sway bars a bit or stiffen the fronts a bit (or both) until you get what you want...correct?

Let's say the Porsche 911 has 40% wieght in front and 60% weight in back. If again everything was equal...both front and rear sway bars same diameter and settings...it would oversteer naturally...correct? And if the rear sway bars were set stiffer than the fronts...it would really oversteer...correct?

Let me know if I am wrong please.

Karaya
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Old 10-22-2010, 04:02 PM
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Yes, stiffening the front will shift the balance towards understeer. Stiffening the rear will shift the balance towards oversteer.

The previous owner probably liked more oversteer and less body roll. Maybe he did lots of autocrossing.
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Old 10-22-2010, 04:58 PM
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Thanks for re-affirming me Flieger.

And the former owner...I think had his thoughts backwards. But I'm still happy. I only now have to buy the weltmeister fronts to match the rears.

Thanks again.

Karaya
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:57 PM
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I see this -- well, at least part of this -- in the near future. Thanks for the detail Rob and all other contributors! I don't know if I could own a 911 without y'all.

Shawn

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Last edited by NOLAsc; 05-31-2011 at 05:17 PM..
Old 05-31-2011, 05:14 PM
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