Why or why not a C4?
 

Guys, I need pros and cons...let er rip!!!

Off the top of my head:

Pros: go around corners and handle much better

Cons: more maintenance intensive, slightly more difficult to work on
Somewhat slower than a C2

AFJuvat

pros: nice quiet smooth luxury ride, wife can drive it

cons: heavy, ugly, lame

From what I have read, the 4wd technology has come a long way. The 946 c4 is much different than a 996 c4. Also, from what I have read, if you live in a mostly dry area or want a track car, get a C2. If you live in a wet/snowy area, a C4 might be a good idea.

You wanna 4 wheel drive buy Audi or Subaru. 911 4s are for retired ppl that dont have reflexes as sharp as use to. Just my thought

Ask the same question on the 964 board if you have not already. Then buy the newest 911 Porsche you can afford and you will not regret it.

You are correct, but in the way you might find surprizing.

964 C4 has much more advanced 4WD than 996 C4.

While 996 C4 has just visco-fluid coupling between front and rear axle, 964 C4 has intricate electro-hydraulic system that's loosely based on 959 one.

It was subsequently replaced by cheaper visco-coupling for mainenance and cost reasons.

As a C4 owner I find it too easy to drive fast. Having raced formula vee and previously owned a 1983 911SC, I like the "seat of the pants feel". The C4 is very civilized. I bought the C4 when the SC was totaled. I was looking for RWD 964 but couldn't pass up the deal on the C4 Cabrio. I'm now considering trading it for a C2 Coupe of equal value +/- to do DE's without a roll bar since the formula vee has been sold.

Re: Why or why not a C4?
 

Depends on which C4.

Like the other guys said, the different C4 cars are not only different in age, but in mechanicals as well.

The first C4 uses a complex (translation: expensive) electrically managed awd system. Sure the 964 C4 is cheaper to buy, but may be much more expensive to maintain in the event of a major service on the AWD system.

The 993 and later cars use a simpler system and I believe it's said to be a bit more transparent than the original 964 C4's operation.

I believe the 993 and later cars also did away with the locking differential? The 964 has a button you can push to lock the rear diff. for better traction (if you're stuck), but I don't think it's used for cruising around. Just use it to get out of the mud, then unlock the diff.? :D

I think the locking CENTER diff on 964s works at 40MPH or less - 50/50 split. Normally 80r/20f I think.

Theoretically, you can yank out the center shaft, front diff, and front CVs and you're now a C2 with some extra control systems on board. Swap in a C2 or manual steering rack and you even better. That's what I would consider doing if faced with a giant $$$ AWD repair bill.

Not that easy, abs and pdas systems are independant creates all kinds of chaos. Better off just buying a C2. If it were that easy I would have done it.

supposedly one of the reasons they got rid of the 964 style C4 drivetrain is to reduce the understeer found in that model, which had greater torque biasing toward the front in a nominal situation than a 993 or 996.

Interesting thoughts....thanks guys. The C4 in question is a 1990. I have been told the C4 goes through tires very fast. Also, I drove the car yesterday. I took a big curve at a decent speed and found the rear end to be a little loose for my taste. Surprised, as I thought an all wheel drive wouldn't be loose at all. It actually felt like the rear wheel broke its bead and came off the rim! By the way, the tires suck...Kumhos. :(

can you throttle steer a C4? Seems it would be tougher than a C2.

I had a 97C4S and another PCA member has a C2S. I couldn't tell the difference when drivng them both hard.

That may have been my problem. I was so used to my Carrera. If I hadn't let off the throttle, I would have swapped ends.

I agree on the more sporting nature of the 993 C4. I don't own one, but the 97 Carrera 4S that I drove didn't feel like your typical all wheel drive car.

Quite easy to make the rear end step out, goofing around at low speeds. Might be a different story at higher speeds. I can say with certainty that the C4S in no way behaves like my AWD Laser- lotsa understeer and difficult to make the rear end step out under hard accel. Tail wagging was not hard to do with the Porsche.

so I guess what whe really need is reports from people who have driven hard or owned both a 964 C4 and an older 911. Too bad I'm not one of those, so I can't help!

Kumho Ecsta MX are good tires, and Kumho ecsta supra 712s are no pilot sports, but they are very good for their price.

I have a 4 and can't even detect that its there. A 993 only puts 5% of the power to the front during normal driving. When the computer detects front wheel slip, it starts to add more.

From what I understand the 964C4 is something like 61% rear and 39% front power, thus the understeer. Porsche supposedly designed it that way because of liability. Understeer and you hit the guide rail, your fault "driving too fast". Oversteer and the ass comes around and you hit the guide rail, their fault "bad engineering". Damm lawyers!

FWIW, the 1989-1994 C4s are dogs at the track.
One almost never sees them driven in anger - for good reason -

The 1995 and on are amazing at the track - could not be a bigger difference between the two.

Is this the silver car you were looking at?

I agree w/ most of the others comments, the 964 C4 was a very 4x4 sort of system, great for snow but not so hot from a performance perspective also heavy and power sapping in effect. The 993C4 was a vast improvement, much lighter and efficient as well as transparant. The 993 C4 system allows a lot of stuff on track that a C2 can't tolerate. The only draw back is a little more weight(~50Kg) than C2. As compensation you get one of the best brake setups ever put on a street car.

I know nothing about the 996 versions except that a few friends have them and I have heard no complaints.

Yes. I am trying to get some info on the engine. I understand it has had a lot of performance work done on the engine: cam, aluminium flywheel, MAF, etc, etc. It's also had some suspension work done.

Bill, have you driven a 964C4 on the track? If so, do you have any impressions? Everything you said makes sense to me.

Thanks,

Lap times from personal experience on my benchmark track:

'89 3.2: 1:47
'92 964: 1:43

By comparison to modern standards the '05 WRX STi does the same circuit in a 1:41. But that's with a professional driver. So I don't know that I would call a 964 a slouch at the track.

No 964C4 but yes 993C4. The 964 system is very similar to the one used on my old Audi V8Q. They are truly remarkable for street cars but not what you want when you really do want to rotate the car.

Yessir. Correct. People I knew that have owned and driven the early C4 on the track generally do not like them.

That said, it depends on *what* you want to do with the car --- ie the old standby:

"What is your mission?"

A track prepped early C4 is a bit of an oxymoron -

C2 or C4?

Actually there is a guy with a 964C4 here in colorado that is mildly track prepped, but I haven't had a chance to drive it. He's not too fast in it but that could be either car or driver.

Im not trying to ofend anyone but, are AWD porsches a real PORSCHE?
I could live with almost any porsche except AWD

One of the things i love porsches so much is their RWD. And i think that they start to make AWD to sell, just for the ppl w/o expirience to drive car like it ment to be driven ( they had $ and power and they were old and scared rear wheel drive )

But then again, that is just my opinion.

I think so. Porsche were one of the pioneers in sports car AWD and the technology was motorsport developed.

Well...lots of people's coments here ought to be temptered by asking the question have they actually driven a C2 and C4 in a comparison. My suspicion is many have never even driven a C4, let alone hard.

My 1987 3.2 was a no match for my 1990 C4 3.8 track prep'ed vehicle, but that's another story.

I can tell you this. If you drive most of your time on the road you would be very happy with the performance and handling of a C4.

There are compromises in all comparisons. You have to find out what are your wants and how they suit your needs.

Later.
Mark

For all but more intense track work, a C4 is fine.

are you referring to 964 or 993 C4? I think they are very different when it comes to the track. I'm not saying a 964C4 is unsuitable (necessarily), but it's definitely different.

Oh Bollocks. The biggest disadvantage they have is weight, coming in at something like 1350kg.

And to the gent who said if he "hadnt let off the throttle it would swapped ends." Bollocks.

At the limit, the traction control kicks in and you can get an instant of big understeer. Just stay on it on and it will tuck in and turn.

Lift off mid corner and a C4 will spin like any other rear engined Porsche.


Stuart 964 C4 Ruf as guts, 86 Carrera

Andy -
Referring to a 964. The 993 4 is a great track car.

Stuart -
Think what you may, buddy.