wheel balancing

[randywebb]

Are the Fuchs wheels hub centric? I'm trying to figure out what to tell the tire shop here so I get a good balance...

What should they use to hold the wheel onto their computerized balance machine?

[KobaltBlau]

yes, they are hub centric.

I don't know about holding to the machine, I've never had to tell them anything special, other than to single plane balance with weights on the inside only, because I don't want crap on the outside. But that would theoretically decrease the quality of the balance.

[Rondinone]

I'd like to offer some advice. If you can, find a Hunter road force balance machine. You can go to the Hunter site to find a local shop with one. The extra few bucks is well worth it IMO. I recently had my Mitsu balanced with one and it's never ridden better. 75mph feels like I'm sitting in the driveway.

[84CAB]

Randy - I am about to take my wheels to a specialty shop that specializes in 22" and larger rims. Those size rims are suppsedly really hard to get true and the specalty shops (RICER,DUBBS, BLING) are supposed to have the most advanced equipment for this. I recently had my wheels refinished by Al Reed and I have a shake at 60+ mph. I bought the rims off ebay and send them directly to him and he said they balanced out fine. But I am thinking I might get them "fine tuned" locally. Does anyone know how good Al's equipment is? I have also had the car aligned and corner balanced.

[Zeke]

Elvis, check your tire's runout before you do anything else. A slightly OOR tire will not balance across all rpm's. At 70 mph, 1/16th of an inch OOR can exert 100 lbs. out of balance force (depanding on tire mass and diameter).

[randywebb]

Rondinone - Thx. I did find one - it's at the BMW dealer in town...

[84CAB]

Originally posted by Zeke
Elvis, check your tire's runout before you do anything else. A slightly OOR tire will not balance across all rpm's. At 70 mph, 1/16th of an inch OOR can exert 100 lbs. out of balance force (depanding on tire mass and diameter).

Zeke- How do I do this -I have no clue, from what it sounds like when I put 7's on front I had some rubbing issues that took a little rubber off the left front tire wich changed the runout. I guess?

I recently had a vibration problem on the front. After rebalancing twice and then checking the wheel trueness, they broke down the tires, rotated 180 degrees on the wheel. They came out perfect this time. There's some voodoo in tire balancing.

[IROC]

Originally posted by Mark Wilson
There's some voodoo in tire balancing.

Actually, I don't think it's voodoo so much as lazy, incompetent guys operating the wheel balance machine. Balancing rotating components is a skill, for sure, but there is nothing magical about it.

Mike

I ran a BFG tire store for a while. I know what I'm talking about.

[Elombard]

I agree mark, I ran a shop for a while and half the time the machanics would not enter the width, dia, or offset numbers right????

On the runout. I think if you jack up that end of the car and spin the tire by hand you can see any thinh large? I might be wrong. We used to get a bad tire once in a while.

[asphaltgambler]

Mark you are absolutely correct here. If a customer has a real high performance wheel package and wants the best balance you need to first establish: If the wheel is true with no run-out, how much run-out/ tread shift the tire has, even new expensive ones have some.

Until this is done all the balancing in the world will not correct the above problems. The Hunter road-force balancer has one thing other machines do not. There is a large roller that puts significant pressure on the tire to simulate the vehicles load going down the raod. This is a good tool when new tires are mounted to really 'seat' the tire to the rim and to break-in the belts.

One thing I never see anymore is a tread 'sipper' or 'shaver'. These were machines that would shave off the high spots in the tread surface to zero run-out. I guess these days nobody bothers with that much precision.

[competentone]

I use a (non-P car) mechanic that tells me when he was younger he used an "on-the-car" wheel balancing system; it used a strobe light that allowed the operator to actually see any vibration. He says he's looked for an "on-the-car" wheel balancing system more recently, but hasn't been able to find one offered today.

Is anyone familiar with such a system? It seems to me such a balancing method could be very effective.

[NoLift911]

Originally posted by competentone
I use a (non-P car) mechanic that tells me when he was younger he used an "on-the-car" wheel balancing system; it used a strobe light that allowed the operator to actually see any vibration. He says he's looked for an "on-the-car" wheel balancing system more recently, but hasn't been able to find one offered today.

Is anyone familiar with such a system? It seems to me such a balancing method could be very effective.

Yes and no. I am really a stickler for a well balanced wheel. In college I had a Honda CRX Si that was very particular about tires and wheel balalance. I chased balancing issues for awhile before I learned to do it myself on the car.

Here is the deal with most wheel balancers in a shop that sees alot of tire duty. You would have the tire jocky throw a 31 inch truck wheel on there (and roughly) and then the other guy would throw my 14 inch wheel on there from my CRX. Yeah no workie, they never rcalibrate the machines enough. The tiny wheels on the CRX are so sensitive even a quarter ounce could be felt at high speed.

Couple that with they really don't know how to use the machine. Ever see a wheel with weights all glopped on one side of the rim and directly opposite on the rim on the same side another glopping of weight? Yeah that is a tire monkey that has no idea what they are doing.

I put the car up on jackstands, got a strobe and a pile of weights and got to it. Pretty easy really, lots of trial and error and lots of time but what did I care I was in college.

You are actually balancing the whole wheel assembly, rotor and all which gives you a much cleaner balance.

Butter smooth. I got pretty good at it. One thing I noticed is the smaller the sidewall of the tire the better balance you get. When everything used to be 15 inch wheels with tall sidewalls it was almost impossible to get a good balance. The sidewall flexes too much at speed and throws everything off even with on car balancing.

Main reason I ditched my 15 inch Fuchs - never got a decent balance. Went with 17 inch Fikse and low profile sidewalls and smooth as butter now.

There are a few places around that still do on the car balancing, old schoolers use a machine to spin the wheel on the car and then use the strobe and feel for where to mount the weights.

If they are balanced on the car you need to index the wheel and make sure it goes back on in the same spot everytime when removed, otherwise the balance goes out the window.

-Jeff

[Halm]

The early ('77 / '78) BMW 3 series cars were known for front end vibration. The only way to get rid of it was first use a tire truing system that loaded the tire, and then do an on-car balance like Competentone mentioned. Also, tires made with a "clamshell" technique (parting line around the circumference) were more prone to this than segmented molded tires. Continental's were the worse, Michelin's were the best.

[Zeke]

Originally posted by 84CAB
Zeke- How do I do this -I have no clue, from what it sounds like when I put 7's on front I had some rubbing issues that took a little rubber off the left front tire wich changed the runout. I guess?

I think jeff--nolift911- pretty much nailed it. There are a few strobe machinres around and tire shaverers are still made and sold. Tire rack has some. Sounds like the best bet is to locate the Hunter Roed Force.

Cab, your rubbing didn't throw the tires OOR. They were either made true or not. The rim can be OOR as well, but that's not frequently the issue.

[Superman]

I got scolded a bit recently for my criticism of the typical "technician" who operates a balancing machine. Good to hear others speak the truth here. Fact is, balancing is an art and most nose pickers at the tire store barely understand how to operate the machine. In my humble view, the tools used have less to do with it than the experience and understanding of the mechanic. In response to the scolding, I told the story of a wheel, supposedly "balanced" by a technician on a computerized machine, that I had re-balanced by a crusty ol' veteran. The crusty ol' veteran used a floor jack and a wheel weight wrench. Balanced them by 'feel' without taking them off the vehicle. Smooth as glass. He also tightened up the steering gear, lubed the suspension and aligned the front end. I think this cost me something like $35, about ten years ago. That little truck was transformed.

[gr8fl4porsche]

I recently purchased some new Michelin Tires for my Mountaineer at Sam's - good price. I had them attempt to balance the tires 2X before I gave up on them and had the local Firestone dealer rebalance them. Sam's Clubs first balance was horrible. Second try was a little better. Firestone nailed it on the first try.

Both had Hunter machines - not sure which ones (made hear in St. Louis by the way).

[Zeke]

Originally posted by Superman
I got scolded a bit recently for my criticism of the typical "technician" who operates a balancing machine. Good to hear others speak the truth here. Fact is, balancing is an art and most nose pickers at the tire store barely understand how to operate the machine. In my humble view, the tools used have less to do with it than the experience and understanding of the mechanic. In response to the scolding, I told the story of a wheel, supposedly "balanced" by a technician on a computerized machine, that I had re-balanced by a crusty ol' veteran. The crusty ol' veteran used a floor jack and a wheel weight wrench. Balanced them by 'feel' without taking them off the vehicle. Smooth as glass. He also tightened up the steering gear, lubed the suspension and aligned the front end. I think this cost me something like $35, about ten years ago. That little truck was transformed.

You weren't scolded by me. Most shops balance for the average soccer mom that can't tell by the feel of the car if there is enough air in the tires or not. Others just accept what they get since thet didn't spend top money for top tires. Go to Sam's. etc. and you drive out with a transportation car. That's what 98% of it is all about.

So, why would a tire shop try to please the 2%? In days of yesteryear, mangers knew more than the workers on the floor. Today's managers seem to answer to the accountants more than anyone else. Cut the losses and max the profits. Ask a volume tire shop manger to explain a dynamic balanace job beyond the concept that the tire is rotating.

[NoLift911]

Originally posted by Zeke
You weren't scolded by me. Most shops balance for the average soccer mom that can't tell by the feel of the car if there is enough air in the tires or not. Others just accept what they get since thet didn't spend top money for top tires. Go to Sam's. etc. and you drive out with a transportation car. That's what 98% of it is all about.

So, why would a tire shop try to please the 2%? In days of yesteryear, mangers knew more than the workers on the floor. Today's managers seem to answer to the accountants more than anyone else. Cut the losses and max the profits. Ask a volume tire shop manger to explain a dynamic balanace job beyond the concept that the tire is rotating.

Milt -

Don't forget about those donkey's that are runnin dubs and larger and "don't want no weights to show on my bling ya know - hide those weights man" Static balance it is.

They paid $5500 or more for a wheel and tire package and the thing drives down the road with vibrations on par with Radio Flyer tolerances...steering wheel shaking, seats shaking but dayum - they look good tight!!

-Jeff