87 Carrera Suspension Mods

[AndrewM28]

Had car for 3 years now and time for some upgrades/mods. Engine going with your chip, intake and exhaust

What should I do to the suspension and how much should I be prepare to spend ?

[masraum]

What do you do with the car? Mostly spirited street driving, occasional weekend and lots of track, or is it your daily driver?? That will affect what you want to do.

Is the thing stock? Are the shocks and bushing old?

More details and you'll get better info.

You could also do a search since this sort of thing has come up 100 times before.

[AndrewM28]

Hey Mas,

Thanks for the "more details, better info".

At this time 100% street driving.

Yea, all stock and old.

I see you are in Houston. Ever go by RPM ?

[JeremyD]

Go here - click on the yellow dots...

http://www.elephantracing.com/suspension/diagram/911suspensiondiagram.htm

I think that's all you'll need to know about 911 suspension upgrades...

[ghnat]

I am in the middle of upgrading my suspension, front and rear.
My car will be street auto-x and maybe more. I have completely removed both front and rear suspension and am close to reinstalling.

I went with New bilstein sport shocks- front and rear
21mm front torsion bars (old are 19mm)
28mm rear torsion bars (old are 25 mm)
Elephant racing poly bronze bushings front and rear (I do not want to ever, ever replace the rear torsion plate rubber bushings again. That was a pain)
New rubber bushings for sway bars
bump stear kit
turbo tie rods
new wheel bearing front and rear, etc...

I know I am forgetting something, but that is all I can remember for now.

Price - I dont even want to know, but if you ask real nice I will look up how much I have spent

[randywebb]

I'm told that the Elephant items are too harsh for 100% street driving by people who have used them....

[ghnat]

I guees I will find out soon enough.

[Rick Lee]

Why would anyone mod. an '87 Carrera?

[Rot 911]

Originally posted by randywebb
I'm told that the Elephant items are too harsh for 100% street driving by people who have used them....

Hmmm, odd. I put the elephant bushings on my '86 when I rebuilt the suspension. Also went with Bilstein HD's all around and stayed with the stock size torsion bars (new). I was expecting it to ride more harshly, but was pleasantly surprised to discover that while the suspension was tighter, it was no harsher than stock.

[randywebb]

Here is the text:

We have installed a couple sets of the Elephant Racing poly-bronze bushings on track only cars, and although they worked well for that application I would not want to have that harsh of a set up for a street use car. I will give them credit for at least providing for a way to grease the inner bushing of the spring plate, not able to be done with all the plastic bushing replacements. We always installed grease zerks, and grooved the inside of the bushing for greasing maintenance on the ones where you could get access, but that inner spring plate was impossible. There is no question that I would prefer, and have used, the Neatrix bushings in the rear for the street, but the fronts are the problem since Dwight hasn’t yet made the Neatrix bushings for those arms. At least the front bushings are accessible to install grease zerks. Given all that, If I had to replace the front bushings, even for street use, I think I would use the Elephant racing bushings, at least their bronze ones won’t wear out like the plastic ones did.

This was from Ed Mayo, the PCA technical person. So, FWIW, that is his recommendation (note the F vs. R difference) and his basis for the assertion.

I'll be very interested to hear from those who have experience doing this on a 100% street car.

[Wil Ferch]

I still find the original question odd....

There is no real "purpose" ...or design-shrift for what the goal at the end of road is supposed to be. Porsche had to compromise for all manner of possible uses..and they did a fine job for that. For someone to say "I'll be driving primarily on the street" and says nothing else...does not give us anything to go on.

Stiffer springs, shocks with more control , bushings, etc...are meaningless if there is no "target".

RUF's Yellowbird of '87 uses 19 mm front and 25 mm rear torsion bars. Pretty much stock. And goes 211 mph.....with apparent stability as quoted by a R&T test. RUF's philosophy is that you need suppleness in the suspension for it to "work". A track car...OTOH....needs things stiffened up so that transients and such can be handled better, etc.

Here's a suggestion. Street driving? Freshen up and replace all the wear points...new tie-rods, ball joints, etc. Not as "sexy" as saying you bought Polybronze bushings, etc...but it'll get the job done. Maybe go for a slight lowering to Euro spec....do a "fine cut" on alignment specs and if shocks need replacing, go for a good set of Koni's or Bilsteins.

Wil

[Chuck Moreland]

Though I don't know the details of the cars Ed Mayo prepared, he describes them as Track-Only cars. I will assume that they have stiff springs and stiff shocks and perhaps low-profile tires. I have no reason to doubt his observation of harsh ride quality.

I will differ with his conclusion that the harshness is the result of the Polybronze. In fact the stiff bars and shocks will ride harsh with any bushing, including factory rubber.

Combined with streetable shocks and torsion bars, Polybronze rides very smoothly. That is an observation shared by many Polybronze users on this board.

[Wavey]

Originally posted by Wil Ferch
I Here's a suggestion. Street driving? Freshen up and replace all the wear points...new tie-rods, ball joints, etc. Not as "sexy" as saying you bought Polybronze bushings, etc...but it'll get the job done. Maybe go for a slight lowering to Euro spec....do a "fine cut" on alignment specs and if shocks need replacing, go for a good set of Koni's or Bilsteins. Wil

EXCEPT... OEM front control arm bushings are not available from any source, except attached to new control arms. It's polyurethane, or PolyBronze, which BTW are on their way to me as we speak.

[Nine9six]

It is my understanding that the polybronze tidbits, allow PRECISE freedom of movement, thus allowing the suspension to do its job. If this is the case, its certainly NOT the polybronze that makes the suspension stiff.
If anything, this would make the suspension more plyable, with much better response to subtle suspension and tire pressure changes. I dont know about some of you guys, but I would find that preferable in ANY vehicle I ride or drive. Lets see...More precision, less friction........
I'LL TAKE IT!

[Jay Auskin]

PM Pelican username "einreb". He just did a lot of work on his '88, and went thru a lot of options with a lot of people.

[buttjoint]

Replaced all the bushings in my 89 with elephant products and I am very happy with the results. My car is street driven only. If you are going to do it, you might as well do it right. As you will notice a few of these so called EXPERTS on this site are FOS

[89911]

Originally posted by Rick Lee
Why would anyone mod. an '87 Carrera?

Because they are an overweight, softly sprung, body rolling car. Just because they were made later in line, doesn't mean they were doing anything toward making them handle better. In fact, they only reason they had thicker sway bars and torsion bars were to counteract the heavier accesories and transmission/engine. These car need upgraded for serious road and or track use. I have driven my car from fully stock to heavily modified and have never looked back.

[Rick Lee]

Dude, I'm kidding. I did every mod. imagineable to my '87 Carrera.

[dd74]

Originally posted by 89911
Because they are an overweight, softly sprung, body rolling car. Just because they were made later in line, doesn't mean they were doing anything toward making them handle better. In fact, they only reason they had thicker sway bars and torsion bars were to counteract the heavier accesories and transmission/engine. These car need upgraded for serious road and or track use. I have driven my car from fully stock to heavily modified and have never looked back.

Interesting. I read an article in either Excellence (I think), where a Porsche rally driver had a personal Carrera that he did some fairly serious "lightening" to. He deciphered after lightening up the car, that the stock suspension was quite enough for many sporting situations not to mention daily driving. I think he took off about 100 pounds from his Carrera by using fiberglass bumpers.

[89911]

True, getting them lighter helps. But generally, what weight you save is often equaled to what safety measures you add, (roll cage/bar). It depends on what extremes you choose to take and the condition of your car. My car is in perfect shape and I would have a hard time gutting it to save weight. I added 22/31 torsion bars, custom valved Bilsteins, removed any trace of rubber in the suspension and replaced with polyurethane, front monoballs and strut, adjustable rear spring plates, 27 front, 30 rear SmartRacing bars, lowered it as far as possible. After using this setup, especially at the track, my car is much more where I like it. Maybe too extreme for most street driving, though. We did the same to my brothers 87 but also stripped it and got the weight down to 2400lbs. Now that car flies.