Opinion sought on early 930

[autobonrun]

An acquaintance is considering selling his 1976 930. It is original to my knowledge with mileage in the mid 40's range.

Is this car any more desirable because it was the first year for the turbo, or less because the next couple years increased the engine size and improved the HP, brakes, intercooler addition, etc?

What are the positives and negatives associated with this year turbo?

According to my Red Book, 530 were made for the US. Any idea of a price range, assuming everything is in good condition?

I know nothing about the early turbos so I would appreciate your thoughts.

[Britwrench]

That is the first year for USA spec 930 models, the second year of 930 production. ROW cars were available as a 1975 model year. A customer has one.

Nothing wrong with early 930s in general, the 3.3 version is different and should not really be compared. Drive and if you like it and the price and want it..buy it. As there are so few about and conditions vary, it's worth what you and the seller think is fair.

[john walker's workshop]

no power brakes is the main issue. i have a '77 930 and it's great. they all need SC cams and a K27 to really make them work, but hey, that's for later.

[Tom F2]

Find out if it still has the thermal reactors. If the car was driven 40,000 miles with them, you can expect some problems. I found a couple of out of round cylinders, and other damage that I blame on high heat, on my '77, which has the same specifications as the '76, except for the through the body front sway bar, power assisted brakes and boost gauge. Also, these cars are geared wrong and they have lightweight clutches. Driving them around town can be a chore, with the standard ratios. As with many of the older 911s, look for broken head studs.

That said, I think that the original 930, with the small spoiler is the best looking 911, except for the Carrera 2.7 RS.

If you get the '76, then I predict that you will want to regear the transmission (or do the shortened G50 thing, or possibly do a 915 conversion as frequent board contributor John Walker did), put on the later Euro style exhaust and change to SC cams, a project which I am into now. The signs are that this will make the car more driveable.

If you want to build a hot rod, definitely go with a later car, particularly a gray market car, where you may get a pretty good break on the purchase price, compared with a US market car. The larger tail to fit an intercooler intercooler, the stouter motor and the fancy brakes are essential for a fire breathing Turbo project, but that is not my cup of tea.

P.S. I saw that my response crossed with John Walker's. I should have said that I love this car, too. I've had a bunch of normally aspirated 911s, and the 930 is really a different animal.

[autobonrun]

I spoke with the seller this evening and was told the engine had been resealed, cylinders honed and possibly blueprinted, and a K28 turbocharger installed, not that I know what a K28 buys you over a K27. So it's not as original as I thought. Sounds like that may be a good thing. I am not in the market (yet) and was trying to find out a little to help him out. But who knows. It is black and I've always liked the early turbos in that color.

I bet the thermal reactors you mentioned were the cause of the engine reseal and improvement to the cylinders. I'll try to find out if anything has been done to the clutch/transmission and whether the reactors have been replaced. Could you tell me what the SC cams provide over the stock ones and how much lag does this car have before the boost kicks in?

If he decides to proceed with the sale, I may post some photos and other info on the 'cars for sale' board.

It sounds like if the modifications have been made, as a minimum, the car shouldn't lose any value over the next several years.

[klaucke]

Some of the early 930's had chrome window trim. I think the look is fastastic and is unmatched by the later black-out cars. Something about the chrome trim with widebody is reminscient of an RSR.

[look 171]

K28, is a bigger turbo, I think. This means you will have to smoke a cig and finish the glass of wine before the turbo will kick in. Lag sucks/. But, when it does, holy *****, throw out the cig and wine, hang on the steering wheel and hope you are not in a turn. Your eye ball will be pushed into your brain.

Change ring and pinion on that 4 speed and the lag will go away a little, actually a lot.

[Tom F2]

I would try to find out exactly what happened with the motor by talking to the tech who did the work. The Nikasil style of cylinder, which is standard in the Turbo, is not easy to hone, and I think that the experts recommend against rehoning them. From my limited experience with Nikasils, I would agree that rehoning is not a good idea. A new set is VERY expensive.

The SC cams are supposed to help with torque at lower rpm. I don't have data or enough experience to back that up - I'm just repeating what I've heard. I don't know anything about K-28 turbos.

As I understand it, the turbo lag is the time that the engine spends getting to an rpm range where the turbo is operating efficiently. This happens around 3,000 rpm in my car. Below that engine speed, the car feels sluggish. Over that speed, it's really quick. The time that the car spends getting to an engne speed where the turbo kicks in depends to a large extent on the gearing. Most of the problem in day to day use is that the gearing is poorly matched to stop and go driving. Once you're underway on an open road, it's okay, though at highway cruising speeds you'll find yourself switching between 3rd and 4th gears, or just driving over 80 all the time to feel comfortable in 4th. The best fix seems to be a ring and pinion change. A change to a different transmission (915 or G50) also seems to be effective. This, again, is word of mouth. I will have a better idea after I finish this project on my car. The K-27 and SC cams are also supposed to help by lowering the engine speed at which real torque becomes available.

John Walker, if you check in on this post again, I'd like to hear about the K-27 installation on the Turbo 3.0 motor. I had thought that this would require an intercooler. True? How would you describe the benefits?

To sum up, I would say don't let the "wild animal" reputation of the early Turbos scare you away, but don't buy one as an investment, either. These are expensive cars to maintain, and the best that you could reasonably hope for is that rising prices might some day get you back a small percentage of the money you spent to keep the beast running. Look on it as an investment in fun, and you won't regret it. Also, it's not a terrible value compared with the cost of depreciation, etc. of a new high performance car. I passed on a Mitsu Evo to buy my car, and I think that the Evo's going to be a high depreciation vehicle.

[targa911S]

It's my understanding that because of the big turbo, they can be pretty tricky and a bit dangerous for the inexperienced driver. I had two friends that bought 930's in 76...they are both dead now. The car ..and their inexperience with the tail happy traits of our cars combined with the huge boost did them both in. A rare car in it's own right.

[look 171]

K28 might be a good bit of boost. What kind of fuel enrichment does it have on it. Run it too lean can cause major problems. Honed??? Why, more power with the k28??? Been pushed hard? Is this thing rigged a 1 bar of boost. If it is more then 1 bar, run.

I have a later model with a 3.4 motor in it with an 8:41 ring and pinion. It is easier to drive, for me, because you're always in the power band. You'll get a whipping of the tail end when the large turbo kicks in while you're trying to rev it quickly under lag to gain power, then wham, especially the k28. The SC cam does help with the lower end grunt, but not much. After I changed the R and P, It felt like the car had another 50hp. It rev so much faster.

Another thing to check is the tranny. Does it grind going into 2rd and 3rd gear? How many miles on the car.

I know nothing about the earlier cars, I can only tell you about mine. I think they are somewhat similar. Don't drive it, because you'll buy it. It's that much fun. Good luck and be careful with the motor.

Jeff

[autobonrun]

Thanks for the responses. I'll go over some of the questions with the owner. They are all good ones. I very well may not buy it, but they will help him price the car if he puts it on the market.

[Slant930]

K28 is an old truck turbo. The K27 in either the 7200 or high flow version is far superior.

The early turbos have there following, but I would say most favor the 78-89 versions for their improvements. That being said, I wouldn't mind having one if the price was right. I would think the price would be low 20's for the one you are looking at.

[Gunter]

Originally posted by Tom Frisardi
Find out if it still has the thermal reactors. If the car was driven 40,000 miles with them, you can expect some problems. I found a couple of out of round cylinders, and other damage that I blame on high heat, on my '77, which has the same specifications as the '76, except for the through the body front sway bar, power assisted brakes and boost gauge. Also, these cars are geared wrong and they have lightweight clutches. Driving them around town can be a chore, with the standard ratios. As with many of the older 911s, look for broken head studs.

Do all 930's have thermal reactors? What were the problems? Is removing them recommended? What do they look like and how can you tell if an engine has them?
What year did the liquid intercooler come in?
Thanks.

[Tom F2]

Originally posted by Gunter
Do all 930's have thermal reactors? What were the problems? Is removing them recommended? What do they look like and how can you tell if an engine has them?
What year did the liquid intercooler come in?
Thanks.

US market cars, '76 to '79, had thermal reactors. They are cylindrical, running lengthwise, just beneath the exhaust ports. The ROW Turbos, and the US market Turbos after '86, have heat exchangers that look exactly like the heat exchangers on SCs and Carreras. The thermal reactors lead to bad exhaust flow and excessive heat. They're truly an abomination, especially on a beautiful car like a 930.

[Gunter]

Did turbos have issues with valve guide wear? Was MSD ignition a common upgrade? On a '87 930 with 100k miles, what would have been addressed during that time? Clutch? and??

[autobonrun]

I was able to see and drive the car today. Attached is a photo. I told the owner I would post it under the for-sale site along with contact information. The car drove very nice. As you can see from the photo, it could be lowered but overall a nice car. It has custom 16" rims and the original 15" ones as well, B&B headers and muffler. I did notice some orange peeling on the front fenders and hood but that can be smoothed out. I know nothing about the car's history but suggested the owner find out as much as possible from the mechanic and previous owner before I post contact information for him.

[Oldporsche]

I really don't know what to tell you other than a 930 is more than a Porsche with a turbo on it.

They handle a little differently than a regular Porsche does. I have always felt that they understeered a lot. My car always felt heavy. At the time it was running, my 911E was also. I guess the comparison isn't really that fair.

There was some turbo lag, however it wasn't like I was trying to show the lag every time I accelerated through the gears. I really felt the rear lock up one time on some wet pavement. I wasn't going fast at all. I was just going around a corner on a normal city street. Just the same, the fact that the rear was steering me around the corner gave me the willies.

The later cars, '78 and later are geared a little lower so there is a little boost there a lot quicker and the transition isn't as pronounced.

I would buy one if like yours the price was right and it didn't have a lot of miles on it. If I ever run into one with a lot of miles however and is priced dirt cheap, I have a plan for it.

The car looks good for a '76. It doesn't seem to have a lot of miles on it. I would convert it to a european exhaust however as the very first thing to do. This would help on the boost/transition a lot.

Good luck,
David Duffield

[Hayabusa]

This car is now listed on eBay Link to '76 turbo Carrera

[KobaltBlau]

hmmm... Opinion sought or Buyer sought?

[Kurt B]

The fact that the car isn't lowered and riding on stiff suspension is a good thing for a 76 I think. The chassis takes a pounding with the stiff/lowered suspension and that pounding would absolutely take its toll over time.
I'd never buy a lowered car. I prefer to fuk my cars myself.