69 911 w/ 3.2 on the road

sdether · 04-27-2005, 09:51 AM

All previous posts have been questions related to my 3.2 conversion project, so i figure i should post the conclusion of this almost 1 year endeavour.

My 911 is finally back on the road and it's a wonderful feeling. Even though the last time i drove my old engine was last June, the difference is so obvious i don't need a recent comparison. It's exactly what I wanted. Of course having this much power on tap does expose all the other defficiencies.

I did resort to using a mechanic at the end, because mating the 69 wiring with the motronic setup proved beyond my capabilities.

The most important lesson that I learned was "If you want to build a race car, buy someone else's ". Sure, I was told this many times before i started, but I thought I was special, i could do it cheaper, etc., etc. Ha, good one. Second most important lesson: If you are going with an early body style for an engine conversion, get the most recent tub you can find, i.e. shoot for a 73, settle for 70-72, and don't touch the 69

kenikh · 04-27-2005, 10:12 AM

Is this because of electronics or fitment of the motor to the tranny (901). I have been tossing around the idea of building a short stroke 3.2 for a 69...

ZCAT3 · 04-27-2005, 10:16 AM

Kenik - it is because of the wiring. The 69 wiring is a one off system and looks like someone just wired it up in their garage over a weekend. If you built up the existing motor this would not be an issue. The other thing is that for higher HP applications you will be pushing the limits of the 901 tranny. But I spoke to many people that have had success with a 901 running well over 250 HP.

sdether · 04-27-2005, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kenikh
Is this because of electronics or fitment of the motor to the tranny (901). I have been tossing around the idea of building a short stroke 3.2 for a 69...

It's the wiring. As Bill pointed out, the 69 is a one-off. Almost everything changed from 69 to 70. If you were to build a carbureted engine, it shouldn't be an issue, since you don't have any special wiring needs.

As for the 901, I just went to a 915 on the conversion. Everything fit near perfect. Had to hammer some dents into the back seats to make the 915 nose cone fit, but that was easy.

kenikh · 04-27-2005, 10:43 AM

Cool; I wouldn't use the stock Motronic if I did it. MegaSquirt II all the way. My wife doesn't know what I want for Christmas yet.

ZCAT3 · 04-27-2005, 11:12 AM

Kenik - maybe I'll have my track car here on Friday as well and then you can see what a 3.2 short stroke in an early car feels like -

TRE Cup · TRE Cup's Garage

The most important lesson that I learned was "If you want to build a race car, buy someone else's ". Sure, I was told this many times before i started, but I thought I was special, i could do it cheaper, etc., etc. Ha, good one. Second most important lesson: If you are going with an early body style for an engine conversion, get the most recent tub you can find, i.e. shoot for a 73, settle for 70-72, and don't touch the 69

Can we quote you on this?

I can't tell you how many times we have been down this path with clients! The strains of "Buy THIS car!" have come from my lips so many times and the client goes ahead and 1) misses the opportunity on a great car 2) spends a ton of $$ (blaming the shops all along - of course!!) 3) spends the better part of a year or more getting it done 4) does not get near the car that we reccommended (full ppi done of course) in the first place.
Of course there are a couple of caveats (aren't there always?) a) does the person have all the $$ at the time to buy the *****in' car? b) Does the person have a very clear set of goals in mind? c) is the buyer capable of releasing the emotional attachment to their own car?

Yes, you do have the security that every nut and bolt has been inspected and correct when you do your own car- but then again that result is only as good as your (and the shop's) expertise.

Best wishes with your car- it will be a lot of fun with that combination

sdether · 04-27-2005, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TRE Cup
a) does the person have all the $$ at the time to buy the *****in' car?

Yeah, that's the one rationalization i still have. I still have another $10k to go, easy, between doing the interior, doing the RS bodywork, paint, working on suspension and brakes, and whatever else comes along. And that's me doing most of the labor (not bodywork or paint). But that's not gonna happen for a while, as my budget has to recover from this endeavour.

So, could I have bought the car I want to end up with? No. This way, I will probably spend more than buying the car someone else spent too much money on and is taking a loss on selling, but at least I have something to drive in the time between getting the donor and finishing the car. I sure wouldn't have had the patience to not have a car at all and saved for 4 years to buy the car I want.

Regardless, building a car should not be undertaken if the goal is to save money.

Evans, Marv · 04-27-2005, 12:53 PM

I'm in agreement with TRE Cup. (by the way Arne, I live in the S.D. area too) Having said that, I'm having a lot of fun doing my '69. I've totally disassembled it, had it taken down to bare metal and repainted. Now I'm going to have the fun of putting it back together. It won't have a big 3.2 L in it, but it will have a nice 2.7 with E cams, JE pistons, etc. I'll have rebuilt the brakes, suspension, replaced the interior and a bunch of other things. It's just fun - but I have to admit I'll be really happy to finally drive it.

chuckw951 · 01:39 PM

Quote:

"If you want to build a race car, buy someone else's ". Sure, I was told this many times before i started, but I thought I was special, i could do it cheaper, etc., etc. Ha, good one. Second most important lesson: If you are going with an early body style for an engine conversion, get the most recent tub you can find, i.e. shoot for a 73, settle for 70-72, and don't touch the 69 [/B]

Brother, I feel your pain.

Good advice about the model year...doing a swap into a '69 poses special challenges.

At the same time I will say that if you do it yourself it can be a fun project and the results are wonderful. I learned quite a bit in the process too. 200+ HP in a light early 911 is great fun.

Arne, let's see some pictures of your car!

echrisconnor · echrisconnor's Garage

Glad to hear the end result turned out well. It must be a great ride.

I'm helping a friend with a 3.2 swap into a '73. In the end, did you find any one single source with good explanation of the motronic harness and what goes where? We've cobbled together several sources and are still hunting for the Rosetta Stone.

chris

Dantilla · 04-27-2005, 01:50 PM

I have a 3.2 in my '73.

I did it for far less money than most, because I had an entire 1987 parts car. Engine, harness, banana arms, and an awful lot of bits & pieces that would have taken either a long time to gather, or a bucket full of money to buy. To have both complete cars side-by-side in my garage for a year was a great way to do it.

I did have help tying the Motroic system into the 1973 wiring harness. No reason to re-invent the wheel when enough cars have been converted successfuly.

It sure is an awesome car to drive. I still haven't finished all the details, but it's more fun to drive it now than continue working on it.

Thanks for sharing. You've got a great car.

sdether · 04-27-2005, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chuckw951
Arne, let's see some pictures of your car!

I need to take some... I'll try to get them up tonight. It's pretty much an invisible change, so the pics will be mostly of the engine bay. The rest of the car is still in sad donor car shape, so nothing much to show.

Gotta do a baseline dyno before I go any further. Anyone have a recommendation for that in San Diego?

Quote:

Originally posted by echrisconnor
I'm helping a friend with a 3.2 swap into a '73. In the end, did you find any one single source with good explanation of the motronic harness and what goes where? We've cobbled together several sources and are still hunting for the Rosetta Stone.

Pretty much cobbled things together myself. But i got some good information, which would have done the trick had it not been for the whole tracking down all the cables for 14-pin plug in the 69 engine bay.

echrisconnor · echrisconnor's Garage

The best two I've found so far are these:

http://www.claassen.net/mystery/

http://www.pelicanparts.com/MotorCity/marcesq1/Modifications.html

I'd love to see some pictures of the finished product!

chris

Tinker · 04-27-2005, 02:25 PM

The wiring is always the challenge.

Back in the mid 90's when I put a big motor in my early car, I went through the same dilemma. I ended up purchasing the factory wiring diagrams for the motor.

Only took me a few weekend of studying the manuals and hoping/praying it wasn't going to catch fire or burn up a computer. It worked, but there were a few wires that had me scratching my head. It is really not that complex (with the correct car) as the major systems are relatively isolated.

Nothing like the first few drives with that bigger displacement motor to give you a feeling of accomplishment............until a few more months doen the road when you become acquainted with the power and start to want more.

Marv,

How's that car coming along? I thought you were going to have to boys in T.J. put it back together for you?? Have you posted any pictures? Are you happy with the results?

Tinker

ZCAT3 · 04-27-2005, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TRE Cup

I can't tell you how many times we have been down this path with clients! The strains of "Buy THIS car!" have come from my lips so many times and the client goes ahead and 1) misses the opportunity on a great car 2) spends a ton of $$ (blaming the shops all along - of course!!) 3) spends the better part of a year or more getting it done 4) does not get near the car that we reccommended (full ppi done of course) in the first place.
Of course there are a couple of caveats (aren't there always?) a) does the person have all the $$ at the time to buy the *****in' car? b) Does the person have a very clear set of goals in mind? c) is the buyer capable of releasing the emotional attachment to their own car?

Yes, you do have the security that every nut and bolt has been inspected and correct when you do your own car- but then again that result is only as good as your (and the shop's) expertise.

Best wishes with your car- it will be a lot of fun with that combination

This is great advice - the only time I took such advice was when I bought my track car. My shop (CT Automotive) had a customer selling his 1971 911T with a 3.2 in that was all set up for the track. They knew I was thinking of doing a track car so they suggested I look at it. I ended up buying it and it has been a great track car. With 225 RWHP and 2100 pounds the thing hauls butt. The suspension and brakes are also very dialed in. As an aside, I may be selling this due to family reasons -

Evans, Marv · 04-27-2005, 02:49 PM

Tinker:
It is in TJ. They took it down to bare metal, fixed the little rust spots & doings & painted it Irish Green. Now its stilll in pieces (body, doors, fenders, bumpers, etc. - no suspension, glass, interior, and so on) . I told them I wanted to put it back together with the help of one of the bodymen when I needed help. I'll probably go down there Friday to get started, and more after I retire in June. I have been taking pictures of it & will post pictures of the whole thing when its finished.

Arne:
There are some good shops in S.D. I've tried about three of them, but I feel most comfortable with Black Forest.

Tinker · 04-27-2005, 02:59 PM

Marv,

You are a glutton for torture. I would rather pay someone (if I could), but I understand the sense of accomplishment and the desire to learn.

Mine is sitting right behind me in a similar dismantled state, although not painted. I just need more time and a bunch more money.

Nice of that shop to provide you the opportunity to help and be helped.

Tinker

sdether · 04-27-2005, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by echrisconnor
The best two I've found so far are these:

http://www.claassen.net/mystery/

http://www.pelicanparts.com/MotorCity/marcesq1/Modifications.html

I'd love to see some pictures of the finished product!

chris

Heh.. The first is mine

... I have the pin-out for the 14-pin plug at home, but not online.. I'll put it up later.

dkm_chgo · 06:51 PM

"If you want to build a race car, buy someone else's ".

I got lucky and did that. I bought chuckw951's 69E 3.0 and it's a blast! A big nod to him! He put together a great car!