First step in the journey, lots of questions...

[dmn23]

Okay, here goes...

This will probably be a lengthy post, and the level of my naivety will probably have most of you in tears by the time I’ve finished. If you don’t have the patience for either, please move on to the next thread.

I've reached a point where I'd like to take my first steps towards owning something genuinely fun. The upper end of my budget (including tax, title, etc. if purchased from a dealer) is about $21K.

Important points:

• I’m not a mechanic, and I have close to no mechanical ability. I was ecstatic to successfully change the starter motor on a ’76 280Z all by myself.
• Possible candidates: 951 or S2, 911SC or Carrera, M6 or M3.
• Order of preference: 911SC/Carrera or M6 (tie), 951, M3.
• This same thread has also been cross-posted to the Rennlist forums.
• I want a daily driver. I live in Nashville – not a major metropolitan area, but close enough that my daily commute can (and often does) include stop-and-go traffic.
• I have no desire whatsoever to track or modify the automobile I buy. Nor do I plan on stoplight races or dogging the car in general. I’m 35 years old, not 21.
• I’m in no hurry to buy. I have all the patience in the world to find the right car, but I need a little help getting there.
• I make okay money, but I’m no lottery winner. I understand perfectly that there’s a world of difference in a 20 year old Porsche and a 10 year old Accord. In a perfect world, I’d like something reasonably reliable. My feeling is that a clean PPI on the right car will deliver what I’m looking for. I’m willing to spend the cash to bridge the difference between a basically solid car that needs a little work to make it right and a terrific car that’s been well cared for. I don’t expect a year to pass without having some kind of work done, but I don’t have the budget to drop $1-2K every time I take it in.

Questions:

• Am I out of my freakin’ mind? Are my expectations absurd?
• Am I not ready for this level of ownership?
• Why do Cabriolets seem to command less money than a coupe or Targa? I’m baffled.
• A pristine 951 seems to be in the ~$15K range (deduct a little for the same S2), but my expectation is that repair costs would be about the same as a 911. They also seem to make a little more sense in terms of practicality, and I get the sense that they’re a little nicer (more forgiving?) to drive. Resale value aside, tell me why I don’t want a 951 or S2.
• The right M6 makes me weak in the knees. Anyone have any experience with these cars?
• Is the (somewhat legendary) handling of a 911 so dangerous that I’m going to find myself in a ditch within a week of ownership?
• Does anyone regret his or her purchase? If so, why?
• What else am I not taking into consideration?

Any helpful responses will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[anthony]

With your budget my suggestion is that you shoot for a nice SC or early Carrera. I'd plan on keeping about $5K of your budget in reserve for bringing the car up to specs. IMO, these cars will end up costing about $1500+/year to drive especially if you are going to put daily driver mileage on it and maybe higher if you aren't going to do any of the work yourself.

Even nice "low mileage" cars will tend to need things like shocks, tires, balljoints, tie-rods, bushings and a full service.

[aigel]

Anthony is right on. Make sure you keep about 5k and plan on spending them during the first year of ownership. Then aim for the cleanest and best documented car you can find. 16k will buy you a very nice SC.

A 944 is a very different animal from a 911. You can certainly find tons of discussions about it. I hear that their maintenance may not only be the same, rather than MORE than for a 911. If you buy a 944, with water cooling, you may as well branch out in other front engine sport coupes. I'd buy a mid 90s corvette, before wasting my money on a water pumper P car.

I think your plans all sound reasonable and you should have no trouble realizing your Porsche dream.

Cheers, George

[silverc4s]

I'll add a couple of points for you to consider.
Porsche Air Conditioning (you DID say daily driver) was pretty marginal prior to the 84 to 89 Carrera, almost non-existent prior to the 911SC.
The M engined BMW's are maintenance nightmares and an overhaul will be VERY expensive. I like M6's too, but most are either big $$$$ or big miles..
My pick for a driver, the newest, cleanest, lowest mileage Carrera coupe you can find.
Be sure to have an independent pre purchase inspection done on ANY of the cars you are looking at, it will save you a lot of heartache & expense later..

[wholberg]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dmn23

• Am I out of my freakin’ mind? Are my expectations absurd?
  ----I do not think your expectations are absurd.
  
• Am I not ready for this level of ownership?
  ----Only you can decide that.
  
• Why do Cabriolets seem to command less money than a coupe or Targa? I’m baffled.
  ----In my experience, Cabs are the most pricey. I am a Targa owner. I like the Targa because you get the benefits of a cabriolet and the hard roof. Targas also have more headroom for the 6 footers out there, and they typically are the least expensive of the three models.
  
• A pristine 951 seems to be in the ~$15K range (deduct a little for the same S2), but my expectation is that repair costs would be about the same as a 911. They also seem to make a little more sense in terms of practicality, and I get the sense that they’re a little nicer (more forgiving?) to drive. Resale value aside, tell me why I don’t want a 951 or S2.
  ----I don't know about this one.
  
• The right M6 makes me weak in the knees. Anyone have any experience with these cars?
  ----Don't know
  
• Is the (somewhat legendary) handling of a 911 so dangerous that I’m going to find myself in a ditch within a week of ownership?
  ----If you do not routinely enter a 35mph curve at 70mph, probably not. I think it would be a good idea to go ahead and attend a couple of Driver's Ed track days, so you can push the car to its limits and be comfortable where they are. I have had two 911's, and never spun either one of them out.
  
• Does anyone regret his or her purchase? If so, why?
  ----The only regret I ever had was selling my first 911SC.
  
• What else am I not taking into consideration?

----I suggest that the best 911 in your price range would be a 87-89. You will have pretty good A/C, a refined ride with plenty of power, the G50 transmission which is more trouble-free than the earlier 915.

As for maintenance costs, I think it is entirely possible that it will cost you $1K every time you take in to a shop for maintenance, but if you buy a well maintained automobile with low mileage, and you are not putting 50K per year on the car, you could easily get away with one major service a year (or longer), and I think that this would also be true with an M6.

I have an 87 Targa widebody that is my daily driver. I had a good shop go through it when I bought it. It is in excellent shape and I have been driving it pretty much trouble free so far.

The only issues are non-critical ones like one electric doorlock not working, but I will have fun taking the door apart myself and fixing that.

Good luck on whatever your decision is.

W.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by dmn23
[*] I want a daily driver. I live in Nashville – not a major metropolitan area, but close enough that my daily commute can (and often does) include stop-and-go traffic.[*] I have no desire whatsoever to track or modify the automobile I buy. Nor do I plan on stoplight races or dogging the car in general. I’m 35 years old, not 21.

Daily driver? How high is your tolerance for pain and misery? If you crave good AC and a soft clutch, forget an older 911. You will not be happy. The BMW would be a better fit, but you could be in for big repair bills.

Hey, I'm 43 and just started tracking my car last year. It is awesome fun...much better than driving sorta fast on the street.

Depends what you want out of your car. Lots of people buy a 911 becuase they've "always wanted one", but don't really understand what the cars are all about. Older ones are not "luxo" compared to a modern car (even a modern Honda). And they are not stupid fast unless you know what you're doing...these aren't 'merikun iron with tons of torque. You have to build a relationship with the car to make it really work. Lots of people can't/won't do this...

[island911]

Originally posted by dmn23
.. . Nor do I plan on stoplight races or dogging the car in general. I’m 35 years old, not 21.. . .

the 911 will pull you to drive like a 21y/o. Everybody else on the road will seem to be driving to a different drum.

So, If you prefer something smooth, go water cooled. -definitely more civilized.

[dmn23]

Okay, maybe I should qualify my background a little. I really have never had any interest in American cars. I grew up the son of a fighter pilot, and we spent most of my formative years in Germany. I've owned a Fiat Spider, Opel GT, Saab 900 Turbo and '76 280Z. Dad currently owns an '87 XJ6 and a '63 Austin Healey. I'm used to oddball cars, and the quirks of ownership. I've always had a thing for Ferraris, and the end goal is a 308. But a clean 911 is a thing of beauty. So I'm not really concerned about comfort so much as I am about character, but a certain measure of reliability and predictability has to come into play. That's why an Esprit Turbo isn't on the list, even though it's in my price range.

Many thanks to all who have replied so far. I look forward to more replies, and to a continuing education via this site.

[Oh Haha]

Try picking up some books on these cars, even at the library. You will find more info than you can believe. You will also find that this forum and the Porsche community in general will help you in the quest for the car you would like. As they always say, buy the newest you can afford. Maybe look into early 90's 911, the 964 series. Oh, oh, or maybe a 94-95 993! I wish I was in your position as I KNOW what would be in my driveway. Good luck,

[anthony]

I want to mention one thing about using an old car for a daily driver. I know a lot of guys use their cars for daily drivers but personally I don't think it's worth the pain and suffering with a 20+ year old car.

At best a car like this should be a second daily driver with another car for backup. I used to have a 20 year old BMW as my daily driver. It was a reliable car but at least one weekend a month got devoted to fixing/maintaining the car. It became an albatross around my neck. The best thing I ever did was buy a new car that I could rely on. And in 11 years, that car has only need 1 unscheduled service.

I put 6-7K miles a year combined on my 914 and 911 and even though both are in nice shape they definitely require about 1 or 2 days of my time every month for maintenance. Ususally it's just small things but if they were full time drivers it would be more time and it's not fun when you have to spend your whole weekend working on a car because you need it to get you to work on Monday morning.

Say you find that nice 80K mile SC or Carrera. Now you start piling on 15K miles a year. In 5 short years the car will have 155K miles on it and you will probably have had to do an upper end valve job ($4-5K), transmission refresh ($3-4K), 5 full services and 5 oil changes ($3.5K), tires ($1.5K), and lets say another $3K for this and that. That works out to $3K/year to drive and maintain the car.

Maybe you get lucky and don't have to touch the engine and transmission but in 5 years you've spend $1.6K/year in maintenance and you now have a tired 911 that is worth 1/2 of what you paid for it. Maybe it will have been tons of fun and worth the cost but it's something to consider.

[JP911]

One thought to consider when it comes to targa vs. coupe (and this is my opinion): I would never want to drive my targa daily due to the wind noise and the fact that it is far from watertight. You will find that most targa owners would agree with this. If I were to use a 911 as a daily driver it would have to be a coupe.

Another thought: learn to turn your own wrench for the basic maintenance on these cars and it pays off in spades. Paying a P-car mechanic to do the basic stuff is a waste of money. Save the mechanic $$$ for the big stuff, if and when something big needs to be done.

Last one: since you live in an area with alot of heat and humidity in the summers and you will sit in stop and go traffic, go for a Carrera (better external oil cooler) that has updated air conditioning.

[jimbauman]

When you do finally decide that you want to buy a 911 (there is NO substitute!), I'd highly recommend connecting with some local PCA (Porsche Club of America) people in the Nashville area. Tell them what you want to do, and I guarantee they'll trip all over themselves to help you out - to help ensure that you don't get taken to the cleaners. You may even get connected with a well maintained, member owned car with a known local history. You'll probably find people volunteering to tag along when you go to look at cars. Good luck!

JB

[HardDrive]

"Nor do I plan on stoplight races or dogging the car in general. I’m 35 years old, not 21."

Sure. I happen to be 35 myself. I didn't plan any driving antics before I got my car. But then you hit that first turn....and pull out of the apex....3000.....4000......5000.....and you find this big **** eating grin on your face. 'plan' all you want friend....

I am a newer owner myself. I have a 1982 SC targa with 82K. I paid $11350. Since I got it I have put in around $1500, but that includes some upgrades, not just essentials.

I can't say I would recommend an SC as a commuter car. I drive mine a couple times a week to work, but I keep another car (VW) for the daily commute. Putting aside maintainance issues, I don't think an SC makes a particularly attractive commuter car. The steering is heavy, the clutch is heavy, 1st gear tends to grind in the best of times. The targas....yes they leak. It IS possible to get one to seal, but it will be an on going battle. To put it in perspective, I live in seattle, and I do drive it in the rain. It only leaks a tiny bit if its really coming down. Nothing a Starbucks napkin can't handle.

I think the 'legendary' maintainance costs are a bit overblown. Yes, if something goes terribly wrong, you can end up dropping big $$$. But I have not found the service to be outragous. The parts are pretty pricey, but not all. Its seems like the most nagging problems people have are electrical, and that stuff does not tend to be big $. I got a rebuilt alternator installed for $350, just around the same as it was for my 99 VW. I think one thing I have learned is that you can avoid the big repairs by spending the money on the smaller stuff, and keep in tune with the car. Start with a good car, and keep it that way.

I love my 911. I was just out with the wife and my daughter(yes, there are back seats in there....) in the car this afternoon and we had a blast. And I LOVE having the top out and crusing around. But I don't think I would want to make that my daily driver.

Plan B) Get a good sc for 12-14k, then spend the remainder on a solid commuter car. Just put a 'My other car is a Porsche' sticker in the window of your new Civic


Ferrari 308.....dear lord.....WHY? $7000 belt service every 10,000 miles? $9000 to have 16 little plastic bushings replace in the suspension? $15-20 thousand if the engine blows?!?! Who needs it? All that for a car that is frankly a dog. I love them to, but unless you have a death wish for your retirement account, let them go. I drove a few, and was seriously looking for a while, but sobered up pretty quick when I looked at the receipts the owners had. One had dropped $19,000 in one year!

If you decide to ignore what I have said (any reasonable person probably should), I can tell you that owning my 911 has been a tremendous pleasure, and I don't drive around living in fear of maintainance. I know you said you are not a mechanical person, but I think you would be shocked at how easy it is to work on 911s. I leave the heavy lifting to my mechanic. But for the small stuff, you can do a lot. And there is a HUGE community of do it yourselfers to back you up. This board is an amazing resource.

I hope this helps. Feel free to contact me directly if you have specific questions.

[gavinlit]

The only thing I'm really qualified to add is that:
1) Even if the ppi is pretty good you will still end up spending a couple of grand in the first month or two as it's your new car & you want everything right - as opposed to someone who's selling the car & can let a few things ride.
2) Targas do not all leak - mine does not have perfect rubbers around the seals (ie a little weather worn) and the targa top is not perfect but I've driven it in rain coupled with strong wind for a few hours with not a drop finding its way inside.
3) Buy one & you won't regret it.

[Fishcop]

JP911's advice rings true. Learn to turn tools... just the basics like an oil change, filter, spark plugs and tyre rotation skills will save you a lot of money each year when you figure anywhere between $60-$80 an hour for a good mechanic.

[gerard vaglio]

If you've owned a Fiat Spider, Opel GT, Saab 900 Turbo and '76 280Z and you currently own an '63 Austin Healey your going to love owning a 911.

I use my 1979 911sc as a daily driver, 30 miles each way and I have no regrets. In fact, just the opposite.

Clearly your already sympathetic to older cars and understand that driving them does take a little more presence of mind, a little more involvement and a little more effort. But I find this effort to be a pleasure.

Unlike people who drive a Honda Accord to work I look forward to my commute. I pay attention to my driving. The sound of the engine, the surface of the roads, when to change gears, my revs and doing it all better the next day. If you like driving an older car why save this special experience for the weekends only, enjoy yourself every day.

If this sounds right to you, the 911 is actually the best candidate for a daily driver. It's made exteamly well, you'll be impressed with the build quality and it's easily the most reliable "exotic" older car you can choose for the task.

I agree with all the recommendations to keep a few grand aside for repairs and upkeep but if you choose a good car to begin with
ownership shouldn't cost any more then a modern car. My car has 150k on it and the motor has never been opened. Maybe I'm just lucky but the thing still starts and runs like it's new.

Your looking to do something unconventional, your looking to drive an older car every day, so you'll be open to a lot of critisism from people who only drive newer cars. The'll be able to generate a lot of reasons why your choice is a risky one but consider this, my car has been a daily driver for over ten years now. Today I can sell it for just about what I paid for it. Not many new cars come with that luxurious feature.

I hope you do follow through and find the car of your dreams.

I hope it brings you as much pleasure as mine has given me.

Keep us posted.

[drsimonwong]

You have some thinking to do it seems. I can only offer my perspective on this matter.

I think it is important you test drive many, many cars to get a feel for them. The list you have is varied and indeed very different. Test these cars not only for their handling but their friendliness and comfort.

They are all great cars but all have their own quirks. I don't have much experience with any other than the 911. With these cars maintainence is higher and running costs are higher than all other younger cars I have previously owned.

If you are planning to let your mechanic deal with everything then go to a local shop with a good reputation and pick their brains for information. Get them to give you an insight into the running costs you will encounter.

A lot of the big costs are related to modifications. Wheither done by previous owners or planned by yourself. Stock cars are cheaper to run and maintain. Perhaps not as much fun, especially on tracks, but anything heavily modified can stress components.

Also any car without a perfect service history is a potential money pit.

Sometimes you can find cars that have had all the big maintainence issues sorted out in recent times. Doing research on the cars you want will reveal the issues that trouble them and then finding a car with a great history will land you a great car.

This site has invaluable resources to help you decide. Do searches and see what comes up.

Another great buyers guide source is found here:

www.performance2and4.co.uk/guide32_n.htm

Using the car for a daily driver is how I run mine. It undoubtably bumps up running costs as the service intervals drop. These cars are not cheap to run, but the enjoyment is what you pay for.

911's are basic cars. Much of what we have come to expect in modern times is not ideal in these cars. My car has a baulky gearbox, poor airconditioning and a lousy stereo. It's suspension is tired and the exhaust is rusting out. These all can be fixed and I have spent a lot getting them upto scratch, but they have to be planned for.

Resources here include Wevo, Procooler and Elephant Racing and of course our host.

But like the guys say, keep $4-5K free for these things.

I run my car through my work so my costs are halved. This is the only reason it makes sense financially.

In addition, in Australia 911's all command high prices compared to your cars. To give you an idea I paided A$50K for my clean, stock '85 Carrera 3.2. This works out to US$39K. Riduculous it seems, considering your guys would probably think $15K was high! But that's just our market........

Down here, because these are still considered high end cars, the previous owners usually keep them maintained correctly and so you know what's been done and what is to come.

Unforetunately with your budget/market it will mean you don't have this benefit so a really thorough PPI is critical.


Good luck!

Simon