My alignment shop screwed up, Semi-experts HELP.

Lukesportsman · 06-04-2005, 07:03 PM

BACKGROUND: (question below)
After three days at the alignment shop, I'm in trouble. NO Porsche specialist within a hundred miles and after installing a full new suspension and bearings couldn't drive her far.

She went in with randomn alignment specs that were just roughed in with a Longacre toe in gauge and screw & level technique for camber. Looked good, drove a little funny since there was no relation front to rear

Got her back with little to no rear camber after three days of phone conversations and correcting their 1/32 per rear toe from their .32 per rear for a total of .64! They even called me on day two saying they had trouble getting over 1 degree of positive camber in the rear. I know, I should have ran but instead I corrected them and let them proceed.

QUESTION:
Sorry for length, but stick with me. They in their idiotic efforts die grinded the slots for the ecentric bolts on the spring plates. So I need to weld these up. To get more camber how am I trying to move the spring plate in relation to the trailing arm. Do I want the eccentric lifting the the spring plate by pushing up on the slot?
Therefore I should weld in the top of the slot where ground or the bottom for a camber increase? TIA for your time.

Why couldn't they just say.....I don't know my a$$ from an ecentric.

randywebb · 06-04-2005, 07:25 PM

The moral of thi story - never let a Hoosier touch a Porsche...

Is there a good alignment shop near you?

If not, then get that booklet and do it yourself.

Considering that the wt. of the rear end sits on them, buy new eccentrics and have the shop pay for them. Drag their ass in to small claims ct. or threaten to if they refuse.

Lukesportsman · 06-04-2005, 07:48 PM

Randy I would consider you a "semi expert" so thanks for the response.

No the ecentrics are fine, they ground the slots that the eccentric bolts function inside. I don't have time for small claims over a $75 bolt, but I really just want to fix it and in a small town don't need bad words with patients of mine working there. I know they screwed it up, but I just want to fix it. I can tig or mig it back up and I would think the rod hardness would buy me some time if no movement occurs.

Original question, and I thank you for your regards to my safety (I wouldn't want to change the hardness on the eccentric bolt either by heat cycling). Do you want the eccentric bolts to push up on the slot to increase camber?

lateapex911 · 06-04-2005, 08:08 PM

Jeeez...what a mess! At first I thought you wanted to fill in the slots back to stock, and I was going to send you my old springlate as a template! But if I understand corectly, you want to actually move the final position of the slot, right?

Ouch..you're going to need more than a semi expert on this! I have my suspension totally apart, but I am working on it as I type, (kinda!) outting in WEVO SPS plates, so I will see if I can check it out.

I will say this though...theat whole system of adjusting so much with those two eccentrics has always truck me as a bit of black magic!

Hopefully a real expert will come in to answer quickly.

If there is no shop around, home alignments aren't that tough. My race car has NEVER seen an alignment shop...just my strings and lasers and tapemeasures!

Lukesportsman · 06-04-2005, 08:17 PM

I must suck at explaining my question. No I just want to weld up the slot to factory specs, but was hoping to narrow down which surface was most important of the slot was most important. I have my old plates laying around, but thanks a million for the offer, Jake.

lateapex911 · 06-04-2005, 09:53 PM

ahhhh...if you have the old plates, then I would just use them as a template to get back to ground zero.

Use a micrometer to take a edge to edge measurement, and file to that. Good luck! I hate hearing stories like this.

Lukesportsman · 06-04-2005, 10:13 PM

Sounds like the BEST solution. I guess I was just hoping to hear which surface was the "most" important.

Thanks Jake.

Any other opinions are still gladly heard and considered.

RoninLB · 06-04-2005, 10:20 PM

by any remote chance is it the rear bolt hole that's grinded, not the ecentric slot?

Lukesportsman · 06-04-2005, 10:42 PM

sadly, no. They asked on the phone and I told them that they could slot the rear IF NECESSARY to get into the spec's I requested. They thought "wiser" and ground out the camber holes.

They sounded clueless to me when they asked over the phone about positive camber on the back of any "on road" car. But, yes they did relieve both rear slotted holes too.....just not the issue I don't think.

Please, Ronin give me your insight. But as with you, its late and I'm turning in for the night. I will eagerly check back in the morning for the West Coaster answers too.

Zeke · 06-05-2005, 04:33 AM

In the spring plate itself, the rear elongated hole is the toe adjustment. It should remain elongated parallel to the ground (obviously). There is plenty of adjustment available unless the car is tweaked. The round hole is for the eccentric bolt and sets camber. The alignment is "held" by the two 12mm(?) bolts at the end of the spring plate.

OK, so you know all this. But, these bolts are only aids in setting the alignment and alignment can be achieved w/o them being perfect and then held by the two rearward bolts. To answer your question, there is no surface more important than the other. To use the two alignment setting bolts, one will affect the other. One can't just set the toe and then set the camber, because the toe will change with the camber change.

It's not a perfect system in my book and only works totally free of forces when you level the car and adjust the bolts with no torsion bar installed. I found that raising the rear and making an adjustment, then lowering the car, then rolling it back into being settled, or lowering it onto greased plates was the easiest way to make the adjustments.

At one point, each bolt, toe and camber, could be "pushing" either up or down. And it's real easy to run out of adjustment, especially if the car is tweaked. This will occur on one side, or the other, and the opposite side has to be adjusted likewise. In my experience, one side will go further than the other.

Hope that helps. Your question was clear enough, I just don't know if there is a clear answer.

fuelie600 · 06-05-2005, 04:43 AM

Luke,

I would say the shop owes you new spring plates. If they ruined your old ones by grinding out the ajustments they will not take or hold a proper alignment.

Are you sure they didn't grind the slots in the banana arm?

Good luck!

RoninLB · 06-05-2005, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fuelie600

I would say the shop owes you new spring plates. If they ruined your old ones by grinding out the ajustments they will not take or hold a proper alignment.

ditto

I don't know enough about welding them back to comment on that option.

Zeke wrote a great experienced explain.

MotoSook · 12:11 PM

Luke,

I don't think you have a case with the shop since you gave them the OK to grind the spring plate. Get a new spring plate.

For your knowledge, the toe and camber can be adjusted with the wheel in the air, loosen the two 19mm bolts at the end of the spring plate to allow the trailing arm to move freely. W/o the weight of the wheel on the trailing arm it will move easily if you turn the eccentric bolts. I made a tool by grinding a 13mm bolt to fit the eccentric bolts. Simple to do with a 13X20 or 30 mm bolt and double nutting the bolt with 13 mm nuts after you grind the head of the bolt to fit the eccentric bolts. When we get the mill, I'll make a nice one that makes it even easier to adjust the eccentric bolts.

Anyhow, the toe and camber bolts will work against each other if one does not know how they work. With the toe eccentric bolt's lobe facing forward, you will get max toe in. In that case it will be very difficult to turn the camber eccentric lobe 360 degrees. Because it's a lobe (like a cam lobe) the camber bolt can be turn 180 degrees to get max positive or negative camber...if one tried to rotate it all the way around, you will work against the springplate/toe bolt and trailing arm.

I bet the shop was fighting with the springplate/toe bolt to turn the bolt. If all else is in spec, they should be no reason you can't get more than 1 degree of camber.

With the trailing arm "up" (lobe up/vertical) relative to to the spring plate, you will get negative camber, with the lobe down, you will get max positive camber.

You can weld a filler piece of steel in your springplate, but if the hole is bigger than the head of the eccentric bolt, I'd recommend getting a new plate. The eccentric bolts do help keep things in the right place. They pinch everything together with the help of the two rear bolts.

On every car that I align, I index the top of the lobe on each eccentric bolt by punching a mark on the outside of the eccentric bolt so I know where the top of the lobe is. It's very handy. W/out it you have to determine whether the trailing arm is up or down relative to the spring plate. Indexing the eccentric bolts, I have a good idea of how much I've moved the settings.

So! If the car is driveable and you think (want) to make the trip up here, I can align and corner balance it for you at a discounted rate. Make an afternoon trip of it, and we'll fire up the grill for an early dinner! Call me if you want to talk...you should have my number.

Lukesportsman · 06-05-2005, 12:27 PM

Thanks all for your input and thoughts. I agree with no case since I gave them permission to modify the slots ( I assumed being an alignment shop they weren't dumb enough to grind eccentric slots).

Souk,

Well, I just came in from welding up the spring plate. I placed piece of Al bar stock in between the plate and arm welded the slot up and die grinded it back to shape. I placed the lobe as you indicated and sticking a deep well socket and extension over the hex wrench I was able to get my camber set using the eccentric to adjust it.

It is now driveable and will make a trip to Effingham this weekend. If that goes uneventful, I will take you up on the offer and drive north later this summer to get it "right"

I only made this issue more critical by sticking 265's on 10" rims under some SC flares. Tight is an understatement at 25" I'm considerable under Euro by TB standards, but were there finally!

MotoSook · 06-05-2005, 12:40 PM

Euro height..ssshaw!

I've set cars lower. It all depends on wheel, tires and use. With consideration for suspension performance lower is OK

I'll put 265's on 10" rims on my car too

randywebb · 06-05-2005, 01:43 PM

"patients of mine ..."

I take it you are an MD or DDS, not a DVM (whose patients usually do not work). If so, your time is more valuable than the money to buy new or used spring plates. Why not get the Wevo ones? You can't do better than those, and it seems they will work well on the street.

Terre Haute = small town?? It must have shrunk since I visited there...

lateapex911 · 06-05-2005, 02:45 PM

I am putting WEVOS on my car...they really are the way to go. The engineering rminded me of the McLaren F1 I was inspecting today. REALLY nice ...and functional. If you can do it, now's the time, and the money spent will come back in the form of faster corner weighting. Something I do every time I go to Lime Rock, which is a right oval for all intents and purposes!

Lukesportsman · 06-05-2005, 09:04 PM

I'm not from here and though it has many great features, German cars aren't one of them. I just put the Sway Aways on her this winter. It turned out ok, I think. Thanks for all the input. I am posting my first post of pic's today after the fix and first drive.

A new product always comes out right after you install something. The squeak of polyU bushings will drive me to tear her back apart in a year or two and do it right with polybronze anyway (some already existed before I started).