69/ 911T starter

[cuy]

Does old 911 s (69 991T) have some kind of thermal protection for the starter?, if so where's located?

I'm having trouble starting the car when hot. It will give me only one chance to start it, after that, it wont crank again (if I push it, will start right away).
If I leave the car, and wait a couple of hours, then it will crank and start again. It's becoming worse in hot summer days.

I shorted the bolts of the solenoid, and the started spin without engaging with the engine... don't know why...

I will appreciate any kind of help or hints on how to fix this,

Ian

[911pcars]

I just responded to a similar question on another thread.

Could be a tight-fitting armature. When heated, it expands and causes enough drag with the field coils that it won't rotate when energized. Try spraying some water from a spray bottle onto the starter housing (exterior) when it's hot or direct a fan into that area and see if that helps. If so, replace the starter assy.

Sherwood

[FrayAdjacent911]

Heat apparently affects old starters. Several 911/912 owners had similar problems out in Midland last weekend. It was about 106° on Saturday.

(I'm just glad, among the problems my 911 exhibits, it started up fine)

[Fishcop]

Yep, common issue. My conversion to Crane optical ignition seems to have sorted my problem by helping the car to fire on the first start (so I don't have to worry about a second cranking sesssion )

I also recently changed my solenoid which also seems to have assisted the starting probs also. Hey be thankful you can push start your car... I've got a sporto (torque converter) so I can't push start!

[Early_S_Man]

The Bosch SR-17X starter is also used by VWs, so it is dirt cheap, rebuilt, less than $50! My standard solution, disassemble, clean & lube is hardly worth the trouble!

[911pcars]

The VW starter is what I have in my engine. Works fine.

Sherwood

[cuy]

Wow, that was very fast. It’s good to know that is a common problem.

Sherwood, just after I posted my question I got to see your answer on the other forum, so I took your advice and check for voltage.
From the readings I’m thinking that it’s a problem with the solenoid (the little yellow wire on top gets 12V when I turn the key to “start”, but there is no V on the big wire that goes to the starter – actually there is, but only 0.8V o so -. The other big wire is always with 12.6 V –whether the key is on start or not-).

Before I posted the question I did hit it with a hammer, with no result, and after, I got the hose and squirt some water, but did not work.

I will start by removing the starter and clean it, and hope that solves the problem.

Thank you all,

Ian

[911pcars]

Ian,
Sounds like a problem with the starter solenoid. Do you hear a click when you rotate the key to "start"? If not, the solenoid isn't energizing.

The following is optional:
You could attempt the big spark test . That is. connect the two big terminals (one on the solenoid and one to the starter) with some jumper cables. This bypasses the solenoid and will rotate the starter (but not crank the engine).

Remove the starter assy., then bench test it. You'll probably find the same symptoms. If the motor is okay, you could remove and replace the solenoid, or just replace the whole assembly. If available, a rebuilt solenoid should be around $10 last I checked.

Sherwood

[cuy]

Well I managed to remove the starter (tricky, almost no access) and also the solenoid. The starter is the SR-17X, but the one I have is relatively new so I’m not planning on replacing it. I would replace the solenoid if it’s $10 or $20, but I could not find one in Pelican parts.
My question is: do I just clean and lube the shaft visible in the solenoid?, is it necessary to disassemble the solenoid and clean and lube inside?, if so, I already took 3 screws from it and a tape but cannot take it apart.

About the test that I have done:

When the key goes to start, there are 2 clicks: one comes from “the starter” (meaning starter + solenoid since I can’t be sure witch one is clicking) and one from a metal box (a kind of rele?) on the left side of the engine compartment (close to the fuel pump). But even then, the yellow cable that goes to the top of the solenoid energizes with 12V, that’s why I’m not testing or checking that box, only the solenoid, and the starter only gets 0.8V .. so I guess the click comes from the solenoid then (not the starter).

I did the big spark test, and in effect, the starter worked, without engaging with the engine. All this tests were done before removing the starter. I have not done any bench test because since it’s cold, it’s just going to work fine (like early today when I start the car to put it on a ramp … everything worked just perfect).

It just does not work when you need it …
Thanks,
Ian

[911pcars]

The solenoid should be available from most large parts houses. VW starters are fairly common. If this is heat related, I would replace the entire starter assy. Shouldn't be that much + you get a warranty.

Sherwood

[cuy]

Well, last week I removed the starter, but could not find a new solenoid. So I just put some grease on the old one and installed again. I also connected 3 cables g10 to the 3 contacts and tie them near the tire for easy access. Next time the car does not want to start, I have the 3 cables to hot wire it from a safe comfortable place.

The test will be on a hot day, and it’s doing good until now (3 attempts to start the car after a 45min ride, and the starter worked)

Also, I have been reading your past posts about the crane XR 700 optical system. I’m tempted to install it. The distributor I have is a Bosch, and the bad news is that it does have play up and down, about 1 – 2 mm (in the cam shaft and that’s how it’s working now. Is that “vertical play”?). And also, when I set the gap for the points, I do it 0.012” instead of 0.016” (bearing worn out?).
I wonder if XR700 will work with the distributor being as it is.

Ian

[911pcars]

The XR700 consists of a electronic box and an optical sensor that replaces the breaker points inside the distributor. Thus, no point gap to adjust.

The optical unit contains a windowed disc that installs on the dist. shaft and rotates with it. The timing windows on the periphery of the disc rotate through a cutout in the optical sensor.

Not sure what the max. wear specs for axial play in the shaft, but 1-2 mm (0.040- 0.080") sounds a little excessive. I would guess .5mm or less would be better. I don't have the specs to verify. The sensor should have enough clearance to accomodate the dist. shaft play you have, but this also translates into vertical travel of the rotor as it spins. I would remove the dist. drive gear, then install some thrust spacers to provide minimal play.

Sherwood

[Early_S_Man]

Ian,

Your distributor is quite close to the point at which it will start to destroy caps and rotors! That can happen when the play approaches 3.0 mm, for sure!

It isn't that difficult to disassemble the distributor, clean and replace bushings, fiber washers, springs, and shims to get back to like-new clearances!

The following thread has a generic [meaning it applies to several versions/models of distributor] Bosch factory exploded diagram that should be helpful in rebuilding your worn distributor:

distributor lube...

[rw7810]

I had this problem with the hot start on my 70 911T a number of years ago. Place a relay back by the starter and used the solenoid wire from the ignition to activate. Haven't had a problem since. Guess the current draw on the long ignition to solenoid run was too high when warm/hot.

Bob in Houston

[cuy]

Bob, that's what I was told I should do (the guys at the store, where I tried to buy a new solenoid). Next time it happens, I will hotwire from the 12 at the starter to the cable that goes to the solenoid and see what happens (that's why I connected 10g wires, so I can do that without getting below the car). If it starts like that, then I will install the relay. I have to wait for hot weather to see if the starter fails again.

About the distributor, with a mirror I got to see the plate and it's a 0 231 159 002. I'll try to remove it next week. The thing is that the car runs fine, starts, etc. The only problem is that every 2 month runs rough. It's been with the same rotor and cap for at leat 3 years now.

Ian