Engine oil cooler - Is my mechanic BS me?

[Bello]

I have a 88 Cab & I noticed a few drops of oil on the ground a few days ago.

The mechanic washed the entire bottom of the engine & showed me the point of the leak.

The leak "he said" is coming for the engine oil cooler on the top side. Gasket problem

He wants at least five hours in labor to fix the problem.

1. Is this too high?
2. The leak is not that bad (a few drops) should I not worry
about it
3. Is there another (cheaper) way to fix this problem
4. Because its coming for the top - could it be something else
leaking it way down?

[silverc4s]

I think it's an engine drop to remove/replace that engine cooler, making sure that the O rings are in properly and the surfaces are clean.
So, 5 hours is a little high, but probably that is close to what's in the book. Most good wrenchs make their living by being able to beat the book hours in real world application.
maybe you should have some other hard to reach items done while you are back there. The thermostat O ring, the oil PRESS sender, the cyl head temp sensor, the entire clutch assembly, rear main seal, are all within easy reach when you have gone this far. Look at the miles on the clutch and the engine overall to decide.

[trak ratt]

There is an engine cooler on the front, right side of the engine and the O rings are on the top of the cooler.
If that’s the problem there isn’t another fix that I’ve heard of other than replacing the O rings. The leak will only get worse, but it might take a long time to get there.
5 hours would be my top end guesstiment for the job. It’s a bear to get to everything with the engine in the car. The cooler should be cleaned and tested before reinstall.
It could also be the engine breather, oil pressure light sending unit, or??? There has also been some instances of the case leaking from a pressed in tube right by the cooler. But that's rare and really hard to diagnose without removing the cooler.
The bottom line is how much faith do you have in your mechanic?

[sammyg2]

I find it amazing that there is more knowledge on this board than in most Porsche repair shops. Every week we hear about a diagnosis from a shop that sounds "iffy". I've learned more from this board than I could have figured out myself in two lifetimes.

Then you have guys like Grady and John Walker and Tyson and Dave at TRE that are many steps above the rest, they know more about fixing these things than just about anyone. They should open a training school for the rest of the Porsche mechancs in the world. Either that or sell franchises and train the people to run em right.

PS, if you guys do that do I get a commission for the idea?

[jimz61]

I think silverc4s was on the right track. If you have never replaced the thermostat o-ring, I'd bet that is the source of your leak. Over the years, the heat has transformed it from soft rubber to a cracked and broken, hard-plastic ring. The oil leaks past the ring, puddles on the top of the engine and runs down the oil cooler.

Spend and hour or two replacing the o-ring and the temp sender before you touch the oil cooler.

-Jim

[TRE Cup]

check the breather hoses too- they get real dry and crack on the motors, then leaking to make it look like its the cooler that is to blame

[kepperly]

The parts are hard plastic and very hard to get if no impossible with the engine in the car. Take a look at our hosts parts and where they go and decide yourself. I don't make $55.00 dollars and hr. so I hired myself to replace mine.

Keith Epperly 87 turbo look carrera slant nose cabriolet

[john walker's workshop]

it's rarely the cooler or the seals under it. breather hose, thermostst o-ring, oil light switch are the usual culprits. R+R engine to repair, about 5 hours labor. so he's right about the 5 hour part anyway.

[Grady Clay]

Sammyg2,

There is; it is called The Pelican 911 Technical Forum. Every Porsche owner, mechanic, shop, and Dealer should at least lurk here. If I was still in the business, I would dedicate 20-40% of an employee’s time to monitoring problems and solutions on the Forum and disseminating that to the staff. I would post every interesting problem and solution every day. I would have the shop, engine & trans building, and the dyno activity open to all. Everyone would learn and, most important, that would include us.

There is real value in peer review and seeing a problem from many different perspectives. I learn much here every day.

PAG and PCNA are attempting this with the POSES system. The problem is that they see it as proprietary. If that were to be an open system they would benefit greatly. The real benefactor would be their Porsche customers – you know, the ones who pay them money and keep them in business. The beauty of Pelican is that it is open to all.
PP benefits from a loyal and enthusiastic increasing customer base. Who’s business model is best?

EDIT
OK, back to oil leaks. When looking for an oil leak, don’t clean the engine. The leaking oil will usually leave a clean path back to the source. It becomes more difficult as the oil follows a downward sloping seam or surface. Even more so as the oil is blown about by the airstreams or cooling air.

If you go to the effort to remove the engine you should address every possible leaking seal or gasket now made accessible. For a few $ of extra and possibly unnecessary parts at this time you can have everything new.


Best,
Grady

[randywebb]

I'll just add to Grady's comments re "most Porsche repair shops..."

- Some of the top repair shops post here (see JWW above) and so do race car prep. shops and some people with tremendous experience (Grady/Warren/Sherwood) + people in other fields who have extensive knowledge in certain areas (Jim Sims/Bill V.) - not tomention a lot of racers & DIY'ers.

We don't really know that this exceeds "most" Porsche repair shops - tho that would not surprise me. Also, there is no standard for calling yourself a Porsche repair shop - unless your work is so bad you are driven out of business -- obviously the std. will be lower in small towns w/o competition (ask me how I know that!).

The ability to post digital pics is what really binds all the above together and makes it happen.

Another factor is that Porsches have always sold to people who tend to be technically astute. If the WWW had existed in the 1950's (when the technically astute tended to be more inclined to mechanical areas, rather than electronic ones, or healthcare/medical areas) I'll bet the level would be even higher than it is here.

[Ken911]

you know in the idustry that I work in the very thing that Grady Clay was talking about is actually mandatory WE call it OE or operating experience. When any one runs into something new it's posted on our network and all the other stations have to review it and see if they have the same issue or not.

[GeorgeM]

No need do a full motor drop for this. Just remove the back motor mount bolts and drop it down 3-4 inches. Also helps to remove the right heat exchanger. You'll have to remove the air box and some of the intake stuff to get back to the top of the cooler and thermostat.

My '89 was leaking from that general area recently, so I checked the oil return tubes. I could spin them around by hand, so I replaced both on the passenger side. A very simple job.

The leak slowed, but didn't stop. By cleaning around the area and driving around a bit, I figured out that it was the cooler seals. I replaced the thermo o-ring while I was at it, but it became obvious that it was only the cooler seals leaking.

It was an afternoon job, not hard, but a little messy. I spent a good part of the time just cleaning the cooler off. I also replaced the tank to cooler S-hose while I was at it. Also replaced the right side exhaust gaskets, of course.

Save your 5 hours worth of labor $$ and experience the job yourself if you have time.

[john walker's workshop]

84-89s are easy. you can get to everything with minimal parts removal. different on CIS engines. you can get the red oil light switch, but the t/stat o-ring and breather hose are "engine out" items, unless you're pretzel man.