synthetic and leaking

[carrera]

Any views on synthetic and leaking in the g50 cars.
Currently have no leaks, dino oil used since day one. Now with 30000 miles have changed over to mobil 1. Some people are warning me about oil leaks to come and are advising to go back to conventional oil.
Your views are ?

thanks

[sammyg2]

If you don't have any leaks with dino oil, you shouldn't have any leaks with synthetic.
BUT........ if you have a very minor, almost un-noticeble leak with dino oil, it will prolly get bigger and more noticeable with synthetic.

When I first got my car it had oil residue on the bottom of the engine but it didn't hit the ground or get on the HEs. I switched to synthetic and it started dropping enough oil to get on the HEs and smoke and smell like burning oil, and left a few drops on the floor overnight.
I did a top end rebuild on the car and put in dino for the break in and then switched back to mobil-1, no leaky.

[Tut]

I bought my '87 in November. Car had 49000 miles. The place that did the PPI did some work on the car after I bought it and before I drove it from Dallas to central PA. I wanted them to use Mobil 1. They advised against it because of leaking issues. I insisted. Ten months, 4k+ miles, and one additional oil change later there's not a drop of oil in the garage. No signs of leaks. One person's experience.

[Wil Ferch]

I keep posting on this ....but it's not being "picked up".

True synthetics ( like Mobil 1 "used to be") was a PAO based oil. Now, Mobil 1 and others use "highly refined" mineral oil ( Class III oils), as the base stock. US law allows Class III oils ....due to their "synthetic-like" performance...to be actually sold in the USA as " 100% synthetic". Not so in Europe and maybe elsewhere. Tricky issue here....the base stock is much cheaper ( makes me gag they're still selling this stuff at PAO prices of over $4 / gallon)...but at the same time less leaking tendency with "close to" true synthetic performance. Tough call.

Meaning? It seems we can get the synthetic performance we want without the worry of leaks by using this kind of oil. Shell Rotella-T "Synthetic" 5W-40 fits this category too...and has proven to be a nice oil for my ( previous leak prone with old Mobil 1) 85 Carrera. Good high temp specs with great HT/HS ( high temp/high shear) characteristics and very good flash point numbers too.

PAO? .... Class III ? ... HT/HS ?... Flash point?

Yeppers...lot's of reading required ...maybe do a search on my name, Lubemaster77, the "oil bible"....or any other likely key word. Lot's of info archived here.

- Wil

[speedkillz]

Very True...we used to put Mobile 1 in used cars that burned oil. mainly because it was non-photochemical reactive. you couldn't see the smoke in sun light. Now you can see it.

[Tut]

Mobil 1 no longer a true, 100% synthetic!? When did this happen?

[carrera]

Thanks Wil, I have read some of the lubemaster thread, but my head started to hurt. I do not need to know this much about oil. I am still trying to get over quantum physics from 10 years ago.
As an update to help others, synthetics seem not so good for some cars.
I have been using mobil in my 86 for years with some leaks that are probably due to all day red lining at the track. No smoke issues at 130000 miles.
So I put it into the 88 and what should happen... blue smoke on start up after sitting for a few days. It would appear to be seeping past the valve seals. Changed back to dino and what should happen ? Everything is fine again. I guess this engine has too few miles on it.
I will try the shell oil just because I like the "clinging" properties of syn.
Four oil changes in one week hmm....

[KobaltBlau]

Originally posted by Wil Ferch
True synthetics ( like Mobil 1 "used to be") was a PAO based oil. Now, Mobil 1 and others use "highly refined" mineral oil ( Class III oils), as the base stock.

M1 has not changed to Type III according to the guys at bobistheoilguy.com, still PAO:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=011844#000000

[..P]

Personally, the whole issue about Mobil-1 "not being a full synthetic" is kind of a form of intellectual ma*turbation.

It really makes little difference whether someone starts with mineroil or camel dung, or a pile of esters (ever wonder where esters come from? I don't) What does matter is the test performance of the final product.

What kind of wear factor will it give in the 4-ball test?
What happens when it's boiled down?
What kind of film strength does it have?
What kind of lubricity will it give?
etc
etc

Rather than playing the semantic "word game" about not being "fully synthetic" or not, I would prefer to stick to the performance issues. Mobil-1, by the way, has "fully synthetic" on the can, so if anyone has a problem, there is a class action law suit just waiting for you if you think you have the ability to make your claim stick.

Personally, I like AMSOIL, primarily because they list a comprehensive test report with each product. Again, when they show their product outperforms Mobil-1, which they do frequently, they are subject to the wrath of Exxon/Mobil, so they better have SOMETHING to back-up their "opinion".

http://www.amsoil.com/performancetests/amsoil_vs_mobil1.aspx


Now may I have a ladder please?





Regards, P

[..P]

Oh, by the way, on the leaking issue:

Since I run three older model cars of the Porsche persuasion, I know all about leaks with Porsche designed machinery. I use synthetic oil and gear lube, but I also have been on my back on a creeper, snugging those oil pan bolts too, because it's amazing that over time they just loosen themselves, some to almost finger turning status.

If you don't have leaks in the car with mineral oil, chances are you can go to synthetic and be fine. If you change over to synthetic and you have leaks, then change back, because synthetic will not harm the seals or the car, it may (as the guy said) flow out of an existing opening in a seal or gasket faster, simply due to the fact that the stuff flows so well. It's an amazing product, I'm running synthetic in a pair of 40-year old big block Ford 427 marine engines too, and the results are quite amazing.

Regards, P

[Wil Ferch]

I'll stand this down if it turns out not to be true.....but that is what I came across...

How 'bout asking Mobil if 100% PAO base stock is used...with no "cribbing" answers allowed !! Just have Mobil answer this direct question.....

Or...ask Lubemaster77....???

- Wil

EDIT.... : p says " ....Mobil-1, by the way, has "fully synthetic" on the can, so if anyone has a problem, there is a class action law suit just waiting for you if you think you have the ability to make your claim stick..."

My response..you obviously did not read my post about what can "legally" claimed as 100% synthetic in USA...vs. other parts of the world...now did you ?? This is fact.

[M.D. Holloway]

Sorry I made your head hurt! Did you try tight'n a bolt or two? Not on your head, but on the engine?



sorry, couldn't resist.

[Wil Ferch]

So Lubemaster77.....what's the poop on "current production" Mobil 1?

100% PAO or not ....... ??

Correct on the US law issues, too...right?

- Wil

[M.D. Holloway]

Wil - very good point. They do use a Group III now, not sure how long they been doing it. I suspect that it has been awhile. The thing is, ExxMo has some great refining capabilities, along with Chevron they made a hard play at the Group III advantages and righfully so. They were even cheaper to produce but that is changing. The group III's have a higher VI and less Sulfur than the II's, they blend well with PAO's and the additive chemisrty that was developed for the group I's and II's works well with the III's. If it was my call at ExxMo I would have done the same thing.

To what extent the % group III's are in the formula? Unless you are on the blending line, it would be like trying to figuer out the recipe to Coke Cola. One could throw some analysis at it by way of GC Mass Spec and maybe NMR. But your talking cash and at the end of the day, what does it really matter? The base oil plays a role and even a significant role but so many other variables come into play that it is like stomping on ants while the elephants come over the wall.

[M.D. Holloway]

And yes to the regs...whats even more scary is the fact that an oil company can claim synthetic blend, semi-synthetic, partial synthetic, para-synthetic and so on but there is no % that they have to adhere too. It can be 1% ro 99% and as long as it has a smidge in it, it's a synthetic blend, semi-synthetic, partial synthetic, para-synthetic and so on.

[KobaltBlau]

Originally posted by ..P
Since I run three older model cars of the Porsche persuasion, I know all about leaks with Porsche designed machinery.

With all due respect, the 911 engine is a lot different than a 944 or 928 engine. I've owned and worked on each flavor.

Originally posted by ..P
Personally, the whole issue about Mobil-1 "not being a full synthetic" is kind of a form of intellectual ma*turbation.

not if Group IV and V oils are more likely to create leaks than Group III, as Wil intimated in the past. However, I admit that seal conditioning and swell agents (of which we will never know the details) will change the balance.

Originally posted by LubeMaster77
They do use a Group III now

How do you know this? I have seen several equally respectable claims to the contrary.

[M.D. Holloway]

because I know guys at ExxMo that told me so...

[cashflyer]

Originally posted by Wil Ferch
US law allows Class III oils ....due to their "synthetic-like" performance...to be actually sold in the USA as " 100% synthetic".
- Wil

According to the Mobil-1 website, "Mobil 1 with SuperSyn uses high-performance fluids, including polyalphaolefins..." This may indicate that it is a blend of PAO and whatever else, but certainly does not lead me to believe that it is 100% PAO.


I'm posting part of this article for it's information that seems relevant to the direction this thread is going.


Article from Lubricants World August 2000
by Katherine Bui

Marketers Take Advantage of “Synthetic” Ruling

Last year, Castrol (Swingdon, U.K.) and Mobil (Fairfax, VA) brought the debate over what is “synthetic” into view, as Mobil challenged Castrol’s replacement of polyalphaolephins (PAOs) with hydroisomerized waxes in their synthetic formulations.

Exactly one year after the National Advertising Division (NAD) of the Council of Better Business Bureaus’ ruling in April 1999, upholding Castrol’s position that wax isomerates could be called synthetic, Petro-Canada (Toronto) advertised it would be referring to its very high viscosity index (VHVI) basestocks as a synthetic in the North American market. These products fall into the same API group (Group III) as wax isomerates, but could vary significantly in quality from wax isomerates. This market roar by Petro-Canada has carried a quiet undertone of moves from PAO to VHVI technology by several engine oil marketers.

The definition of synthetics aside, cost factors and performance continue to drive marketers to carefully asses the use of PAOs and Group III stocks (VHVIs). In the past year, several marketers have made the jump from PAOs to VHVI-based “synthetics.” VHVIs cost approximately half what PAOs do and, according to VHVI producers, perform at a level comparable to PAOs in formulated oils. Yet, Mobil 1, which has the strongest hold on the synthetic market (estimated by one analyst at 60.4%) and factory-fill contracts with Corvette and Porsche, continues to dominate the overall synthetic market with its PAO technology.

Mobil 1, whose PAO technology was one of the many trade secrets that changed hands during the merger between Exxon and Mobil, remains loyal to PAOs. However, even ExxonMobil could not resist the appeal of competitive pricing. It released a new synthetic blend that combines the PAO technology with a “high-quality conventional oil” in February of this year.

The primary downside to the NAD ruling and any resulting replacement of PAOs with VHVIs, says Svoboda, “is that North American PCMO consumers will not be getting the higher quality performance level offered by the PAO. Despite claims of equivalent performance, PAO continues to maintain its superior performance over Group IIIs under extreme operating conditions, particularly with regard to low-temperature performance and high-temperature oxidative stability.”

Barrett Cupples, a consulting scientist who worked with PAOs at Chevron Chemical for 20 years, cautions marketers against directly switching from PAOs to VHVIs without adequate testing. “According to API base oil guide lines, Group III stocks may not simply be substituted for PAOs in motor oil formulation,” he says. “Any switch will require extensive testing to ensure that the final product fully meets the requirements of that lubricant.”

Retail shelf prices have remained constant despite changes in formulation. Mass merchandise shelf prices for synthetic PCMOs average between $3 and $4 per quart. In the first quarter, the price for a quart of Mobil 1 synthetic was approximately $4.09. The cost of Valvoline SynPower was slightly higher, at $4.22.

[M.D. Holloway]

good find! BTW - Cupples et al make serious cash as a consultants by going in to oil houses and warning about a falling sky.

[cashflyer]

Interestingly, the following statement comes from the exxonmobil b2b website (not their consumer site)

PAO-based products significantly outperform mineral oil and enhanced mineral oil (Group III) based products