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Neal Boysen's Avatar
 
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Can I use a Bosch "red" or "blue" coil?

Can I use a Bosch "red" or "blue" coil in my 71T with a 2.2? Are there any advantages or disadvantages?

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Old 10-12-2005, 01:26 PM
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no not with a cd box, OE replacement is the silver one now
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Old 10-12-2005, 01:33 PM
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I'm using a bosch blue coil in my SC with stock everything else (including CDI box). This is always a bone of contention but mine has been running great this way for over a year with track events, cold weather, etc.
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Old 10-12-2005, 01:53 PM
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Andy:

Its will certainly run, but you ar NOT getting the full voltage & current that the Bosch CD is capable of.

Not that its a big deal, but I've seen a 5 HP drop on the dyno with combinations like yours.

The correct coil to use is the black coil that these cars came with.
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Last edited by Steve@Rennsport; 10-12-2005 at 02:17 PM..
Old 10-12-2005, 02:08 PM
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My racecar has a blue coil on it with a three pin CDI. I guess that is going to be changed now, as 5 HP is a lot on 2.7S CIS motor. Thanks Steve.
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Old 10-12-2005, 02:14 PM
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I recomend putting both coils into a proton excelorator and using the purple one that comes out
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Old 10-12-2005, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve@Rennsport
Its will certainly run, but you ar NOT getting the full voltage & current that the Bosch CD is capable of.

Not that its a big deal, but I've seen a 5 HP drop on the dyno with combinations like yours.

The correct coil to use is the black coil that these cars came with.
Steve, I never cease to be impressed by your info. I suppose $40/hp is not really bad in porsche terms. It seems that the replacement is now silver, though pelican shows the item temporarily unavailable. Is there a way to test a used coil to make sure you are getting your money's worth from a salvage yard? My old black coil had insulator leaking out.
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Old 10-12-2005, 02:25 PM
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there has been a lot said on this board about the silver coils being bad. I experienced one my self. Had a coil issue replaced it with a brand new silver one and dead in a couple of weeks, I put the blue one on and I have been running great for 2.5 years. I would stay with the black one it is the best if you can find it.

Please do a search to see if you can find what I am talking about. I remember there being a discussion on how the silver coils are sub-par now that they are made in brazil???
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Old 10-12-2005, 02:49 PM
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If it is true about the horsepower gain, what other coils can we use besides the silver, and blue coil with the stock CDI?

I forgot to mention that I am running a SC '82
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Old 10-12-2005, 02:51 PM
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Personally, I really liked Rick V's idea,...

I've heard about, but have no first-hand experience with the silver coils.

I'd suggest locating a good used black coil as these are normally quite durable. Call the folks like Parts Heaven,......
You can check the resistance of the coil with a good digital VOM although that doesn't tell if it has a probelm when hot.

Due to the current pricing of these ignition parts, we've done a lot of MSD conversions using an MSD 6AL and High-vibration Blaster coils. Its VERY cost effective and if properly installed, these are VERY reliable.
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Old 10-12-2005, 03:05 PM
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Steve,

So do you think doing a MSD conversion on my '82 SC would be a worth while venture, even if my stock ignition with the blue coil is running fine? Be careful because if you say yes it will give me a reason to throw money at my car with just cause
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Old 10-12-2005, 03:35 PM
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Thanks for the info guys. I'm not real familiar with CD system in my 71T so I thought I'd ask the question about the coil. I know in the VW circles stepping up to a Bosch 009 distributor and a blue or red coil was the way to go, hence my question. By the way that's where I started (VWs) and so I'm still learning about my Porsche that I've only had for about 6 months. Oh and by the way I don't have a problem with my coil now, I was just wondering...
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Old 10-12-2005, 04:43 PM
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FWIW, and I think it's worth quite a bit, Warren Hall posted that his tests show that the MSD high vibration #8222 coil is compatible with the Bosch CD unit. I sure hope he's right, because I'm now carrying one as a spare coil. Figured it would get me home until I bought the factory black unit.
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Old 10-12-2005, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by pwd72s
FWIW, and I think it's worth quite a bit, Warren Hall posted that his tests show that the MSD high vibration #8222 coil is compatible with the Bosch CD unit. I sure hope he's right, because I'm now carrying one as a spare coil. Figured it would get me home until I bought the factory black unit.
Fair enough, but Warren also "approved" the bosch blue coil, quote below. I don't think the MSD would have trouble getting you home, but does it have the slight power disadvantage that the blue coil does? Steve?

Quote:
Originally posted by Early_S_Man
Chris,

I have tested the following non-CDI coils on both Bosch and Permatune CD systems [continuous 40+ hour operation under heat lamp at 180�F -- 0.032" spark plug gap] and found acceptable output and no ill effects to either CDI unit:

1. Bosch Blue coil

2. Bosch Red coil

3. Sears Epoxy coil, circa 1978 ... a replacement suggested in Panorama in those days ...

4. MSD Epoxy High Vibration coil
from thread:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/155041-ignition-coil-question-911sc-post2002866.html?highlight=msd+vibration#post2002866
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Old 10-12-2005, 05:35 PM
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"Its will certainly run, but you ar NOT getting the full voltage & current that the Bosch CD is capable of." - Steve Weiner -

Another "old wife's tail"! The Bosch blue coil works just fine with the Bosch
CDI. There's NO lose of energy transfer by using the blue coil. The silver
coil is the highly intermittent one to avoid. Ideally the OEM coil (small
black one) that Porsche used is the best.

Read here: ( www.systemsc.com/technical.htm ) under Ignition Systems for info
about CDI systems and coils.

"Not that its a big deal, but I've seen a 5 HP drop on the dyno with combinations like yours."

- Steve Weiner -

Total B.S.! There's NO technical merit to the multiple spark type systems.
If so, Porsche would have easily used that in the "history cars" (964 & 993)
versus twin plugs and now in the DIS (direct ignition system) used in the
new 996/997. The multiple spark systems are a good "marketing hype"
product.

"So do you think doing a MSD conversion on my '82 SC would be a worth while venture, even if my stock ignition with the blue coil is running fine?"

- Rodney Nelson -

Don't waste your money when you have a good running Bosch system!
Buy a carbon fiber shift knob instead, you'll "feel" more performance.
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Last edited by Lorenfb; 10-12-2005 at 07:27 PM..
Old 10-12-2005, 07:09 PM
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Loren:

The first thing I should tell you is that you need to buy an engine dyno (not chassis dyno's) and perform component tests for yourself, instead of just reading things from a book. Then, you can see things for yourself instead of just blasting people-products on Internet bulletin boards.

Second, (if you calm down), you'll take note that I did NOT tell Mr. Nelson to forsake his Bosch system. I only advise people to consider the MSD's when the spectre of buying new Bosch components is raised.

You really ought to put something in your .sig file that you repair &service Bosch components for a living, otherwise your credibility-integrity-objectivity is seriously compromised.

I have no 'dog in this hunt';......we use both Bosch & MSD components depending on the application.
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Old 10-12-2005, 09:38 PM
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I have an OEM black coil on my 2.7 CDI system that has both connectors on the same side. Where in the world do I find a new/replacement coil like that? I really don't want to cut and splice my wiring to work with a different coil.

Jack
Old 10-13-2005, 06:05 AM
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There always seems to be lots of discussion on this subject.
Maybe this will help...for identification...here is a picture of the "coils" Left to right are Bosch Stock OEM pulled from a 1969E w/CDS PN 0221121001 (Black color), Bosch current CDS model PN 0221121001 (Silver color) and the Bosch "Blue" PN 0221119027 (Blue color) Note size difference.



It appears that the Porsche factory made a distinction between the regular coil and the one for the CDS which they call an "Ignition voltage transformer" and the regular coil a "conventional induction coil". In the Porsche OEM shop manual page SL24 item #2 states "The ingnition voltage transformer cannot be replaced with a conventional induction coil. It cannot be be wired or tested as a coil"
Could this be the answer as to why so many of the CDS boxes have burned out. Using the wrong parts. Permatune also requires a special "coil" for their CDS box. It just seems that for some good reason the factory decided to use a diffrent "coil" for the CDS equipped cars. And I don't think it was just because they could charge more for the CDS "coil" As always you can use what you want...but just maybe....just maybe this is why many CDS have failed....summer heat...on the road....little heat from miss matched "coil".....BAM....you are now on the side of the road cussing the CDS box and thinking I should have bought that MSD box from Steve or our host....or is it you should have spent a few buck more for the "Ignition voltage trasnformer" and not used that pretty Bosch Blue coil...or the cool Red one with the internal balst resistor....
Just fuel for the fire.......

John
Old 10-13-2005, 07:32 AM
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"Could this be the answer as to why so many of the CDS boxes have burned out."

No, that's not true. Again, to get a better understanding of how a CDI
system functions and what its' coil really does, read here:

www.systemsc.com/technical.htm under Ignition Systems.

Porsche has correctly stated that the 911 coil functions as a transformer
versus a energy storage element as in a conventional ignition system.
Therefore, as a transformer, the Porsche CDI doesn't require the inductance
of a conventional coil and can be much smaller. The conventional coil
with its greater inductance causes no problem for the Porsche CDI.

The only problem for a CDI when using a conventional coil is a coil
with a turns ratio much greater than 100 which causes too high
of a spark voltage. Porsche coils' data are here:

www.systemsc.com/diagnostic.htm

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'04 GSXR1000
'01 Ducati 996
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Last edited by Lorenfb; 10-13-2005 at 09:42 AM..
Old 10-13-2005, 07:58 AM
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