Fixed rear quarter window?
 

Im debating, before I fix the brackets, if i should just convert to fixed rear quarter windows. How would I go about doing this? Would I need new windows that are smaller? Open to opinions

Mike

Hi Mike,

If you are going to do this conversion, I'll swap you my fixed 1983 SC windows (great condition) for your operable windows (all hardware included). I don't have any A.C. anymore, and I want the positive ventilation that operable windows give. My 1974 had them, and I miss them when Porsche AG put fixed windows on all A.C. coupes.

Yes, you'll need all new windows and rubber, including the lip on the bottom. But with this swap, I would send you everything you need, but then again, I doubt that my SC windows will fit in your 1970 T frames.

Oh well.

If they do happen ot fit, which I also doubt, I would be willing to trade. I am also considering going plastic in hte back because im going to start autoxing in the near future. But, I am afraid it would look cheesy ot have just the rear windows plastic... anyways If anyone knows if they fit or are close pm me.

I see no reason why they wouldn't fit.
Don't forget that the SC will have black trim, not silver.
My 74 has fixed windows along with some other weird things.

Thats another thign that i've realized, does anyone happen ot have a picture of fixed backs on an early p-car with silver trim? I dont think that the black trim would look too goofy. My car is black anyways.

Here is my 74:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132417139.jpg

Understand that the window ( glass) for the pop-outs are physically smaller ( by a very small amount)..and that there are other trim pieces that need to be swapped to make the conversion work. I'm going from fixed to pop-outs later this year...and a thread by TRE-Cup is a worthwhile search.....

Wil

THE B-PILLAR IS VERY DIFFERENT!

I just went thru this.

Putting pop-outs in an SC (or newer) means some significant mod's to the B-Pillar.

Apparently, with the SC, Porsche decided to strengthen the B-pillar. The SC has an added, welded-in L-bracket (or perhaps its a U-bracket)

Also, a few of the trim mounting holes are in different places. And, you will have to cut slots, in the B-pillar, for the hinge hardware.

I'll post some picts later.

Putting fixed SC windows into an early car seems to be easy.

island911,

I look forward to your pics as I'm thinking about doing this to my SC in the near future.

Thanks!

First, here are the two lower trim pieces. The wider one is for the early cars w/ popouts.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132448128.jpg

Close up of the ends (note extra hole and different locations.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132448234.jpg

(I think that one would mod the trim, rather than drill another hole in their car. YMMV)


Now the big stuff

Heres the SC B-pillar. (drivers side, looking fwd)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132448371.jpg


top of the pillar, interior trim rolled back...



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132448444.jpg


That whole channel needs to be removed.


Heres an early car B-pillar . . . note the slot for the hinge.
(passenger side, here; looking fwd)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132450825.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132450854.jpg

zoom

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132450890.jpg

Well that's just great !!!

I was "banking" on the tech write up by TRE-Cup to be the definitive answer. If so...it then appears to work only for the pre-SC's...

Link--> http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=151925&highlight=tre+wi ndow

Mine's an '85...now what? Surgery like Island911 says..or "easy" like TRE Cup says?

:(

Wil

the tech write up by TRE-Cup does address this . .. SO, "how easy is the Sx?" . .. I think that it would be easy . .. on someone elses car. ;)

Seriously, I couldn't do it. I figured a work-around, to get out of drilling holes in the body, for the trim. (potential rust starters) But slicing off a structural member . . .that just made me cringe (Mechanical Egr, here)

Also, reading aout some who hope to add ridgity to an early 911 by using fixed windows raise an eyebrow.

. . .the grass is always greener on the other side. ;)

Thank you for the pics and the writeup. I was afraid this mod wasn't a simple bolt-in for a SC.

TRE cups's description is therefore deceptive...a "thin" piece to drill spots welds out of...is not the same severity that your pictures show....

I feel strangely mislead about this whole thing.... NOW that I bought the pop-out windows .. :(

Wil

Island911:

Another question... you say the slots have to be cut for the later cars...TRE Cup says that once the "thin flange" is removed...the slots are already there ????

How many more discrepencies ( variations?) are we going to find ?

- Wil

Slots -That could be a bad assumption on my part. (they may exist under the U-bracket . . . when I posted I didn't remember if it was an L or U)

one other thing to look out for.. Some latch brackets have thick spacers . . .some have thin. (per John Walker . .. when I found, on a call at his shop, some window latches mounted differently, on thick "gaskets")

Hand built cars, you know. I imagine Hans (or Franz) with an assortment of spacers, getting the right fit for each car.

Having thought of doing this on my 1983, to match my former 1974 pop-outs, I have checked and my car does have the two holes for the hinge on the B pillar. At least I can feel the small depressions under the leather (yes, leather) on my B pillar.

OK.... now I'm really confused.

I understand that the leading edge of the pop-out windows have "tabs" that ( I thought) simply engage into the B-pillar "slots".

Hinge? Bolt holes for hinge ( also shown in your pics) ?? What hinge?

I printed out most of the model years' windows from the Porsche PET...and I don't see a hinge either ( of course unless I'm blind !)

- Wil

My 1974 911 had pop-out windows, and they were hinged at the B pillar, with the stationary piece screwed to the B pillar.

It also had a "funny" piece at the C pillar, that allowed them to be opend about 3", and then lockd in place with a plastic screw. I can't figure out what to call those things.

Anyway, when I checked with a local race shop that routinely removes these things, their take-offs also have the hinges at the B pillar.

So, in my experience, the pop-out side windows are hinged. Perhaps the "slots" are earlier than 1974 or later than 1974 pieces?

I wish TRE cup would chime in on this thread to provide some clarification as to the variations and permutations we can expect to see.

I don't like entering into a new project unless there is a relatively clear "road plan" ahead of me.

- Wil

Right on, Wil!!!!

There have been many instances in the past in which board members have given opinions rather than facts. I try to give you my experiences, and, of course, they can differ from other people's experiences.

But when I "know" that my 1974 had such and such, and I state it that way, I do not mean to imply that any other model year might be the same - they might, indeed be different.

I just hate it when people write " I think....". Usually such information is not useful. It is opinion, and can mislead. It is for this very reason that I always ask,"does anyone have test results, real-world experience", etc. For example, when I put SSI heat exchangers and an Alan Johnson sport muffler on my car, I didn't just "think" I got 20 HP extra - I actually put my car on a dyno before and after, and the read-outs shows I got 20 HP extra.

When I wanted to know if the Camber Truss really works, I ran the morning session of a DE without, put a friend's Camber Truss onto my car during the lunch break, and I discovered that it does indeed make a HUGE difference during the afternoon runs. And so I purchased one based on that experience.

Test, inspect, verify, then purchase.

Andras:

You bring up a good point.... but I believe this topic here takes on a slightly different flavor.

TRE Cup was good enough to post his experiences ( based, he says, on doing this a number of times)...and gave advice how to proceed. Island911 also gave his real-world experiences...based on HIS car.

What's missing here is something different. There are indeed real world example given...but it seems there are gaps as to when / where they apply. Stated another way... what's posted is correct...but how many different variations are there to consider when YOU want to do the SAME thing to YOUR car? I guess I'm saying there is a gap on "completeness"...more so than "real world" experiences.

I have a note out to TRE...let's see what develops.....

Wil

pop-outs
 

I went from fixed to pop-outs on my 78. There was a piece that had to be removed from the B pillar, but I didn't consider it particularly structural. A bit more than decorative, but not that hefty. After removing it bolting in the pop-outs was pretty easy. The captive nuts in the B pillar were there and threaded. I had to add nut serts to the C pillar for the latch mechanism, but the holes were there in the proper locations.

Going the other way I think you would need to fab up and weld on the piece I had to remove. You can see what it looks like by inspecting a fixed window car.

I love my pop-outs and think they are a big enhancement for a street car. Much better ventilation than before.

Hetman:
OK...the core question remains....you removed the thin metal panel.
You found captive nuts in the B-pillar....now... did you have to bolt-in a "hinge"...or did the tabs on the front-frame engage slots in the B-pillar?

Wil

Hey Wil, the tabs are the hinge. As the window tips (hinges) out, something has to bend.

As to whether the U-channel is structural or not, I say it is .. .and, see my sig, below. :cool:

Island911:

Never having had the opportiunity to look at a window "Apart"..... I think you can understand that the *possibility* existed for a tab of the window to simply be "loosely located" into a "slot" of the B-pillar... without any kind of hinge. Thanks for clarifying.

So...the windows I will receive.....clearly showing "tabs" in the profile pics I saw......means that they're part of the hinge that comes attached to the window frame?. I'll guess I'll see for myself when they arrive.

Wil

The hinge tabs, are screwed into the leading frame structure of the window (thru 2 slots per tab in the window) and then screw into the B-pillar (thru the long slots in the B-pillar)

Slots; Based on the observation that the other provisions for the pop-out are in the sheet metal, I think that its safe to say that Porsche did NOT change the tooling for the sheetmetal, AND that the slots exist under the U-channel (which is spotwelded over the area)

Thank you so much, kind Sir...

..we're slowly getting to a "Tech Article" status here...which it could have been in the first place !

-Wil

I wish now that I had more pictures. (I deleted them apparently)

Well, you have a perfect opportunity to do the documentaion for a write-up. (that's where I was going until I bailed . . couldn't CUT it -- my SC)

One other big issue, is just making sure you get all the needed little parts for the swap. Commonly, people forget the headliner trim (flexible U-channel) . . or the hinge-tabs get left in the parts car .. . or the spacers under the latches are cracked and get conveintly left out . .. or ....

A parts list w/ pict's would be useful. ;)

Here is my input for what it is worth:

The installation on an SC is as has been described here and elsewhere. You need to drill out a bunch of spot welds to remove a channel placed on the B-pillar. Once accomplished, the slots and tabs are present but the holes are not tapped. I used self tapping screws and they worked fine. The lower trim is different than the fixed window and is required. On one side I had to drill new holes for all the mounting screws and on the other side, all but two holes in the trim lined up with existing holes. To mount the window latch, I installed nut-serts on the body. The holes are there on the C-pillar already so the nut-serts go right in.

The only thing I can add to the discussion is I would recommend pulling the door seal before installing the window. There is a large flap on the leading edge of the window seal that fits best underneath the door seal. I could not find a useful way to push or finagle it into place without much frustration. Pulling even a foot or so of the door seal made this a non-issue.

I stil need to get U-channel to cover up some things and am waiting for the correct hinge for the left side but so far everything is working as advertized.

Window frame and lower trim has been glass-bead blasted. The drilled spot welds are also visible (until I get the u-channel trim)
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151876290.jpg

Hey there folks -

On my SC the holes in the b-pillar are not threaded. Does anyone know what size tap I could use to thread the b-pillar holes so that I could use the correct factory bolts for the pop out windows?

I've got a pair of complete pop out windows ready to go in I just don't know what size tap to use.

Thanks for the help!

Reviving an old thread … who can do this conversion professionally? Body shop in the Chicagoland area?
Would like to convert my 964 fixed rear windows to pop outs. Front vent windows would be great too.