MFI adjusting tech manual
 

It here a book or manual I can buy to adjust my MFI injector pump? We now have it running, but that is it...it rev's up and you can drive it around the yard, but it is running way too rich. My friend took the pump apart in order to unstick the pistons, anow ther out of wack..

I have read alot of the .PDF manuals on this site, but they dont tell much on the inside of the pumps. Thanks

Hope this helps...
 

Lex,

While I am not a MFI Guy. I have always heard that you need the "Check, Measure Adjust" manual. It is in the tech section here.

I looked and cant find it, anyone have the link?

All you need to do is type "Mechanical Fuel Injection" into the search box at the top of this screen, and it pops right up (in the results section under technical articles).

I don't understand why people don't use the search engine?

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/911_MFI/TipMFI.htm

-Wayne

What kind of injection do I have?..K, L,....? I've been calling it mechanical injection.

If you have the stock 2.4 liter engine, you have Bosch MFI. The "book" is here: http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/911_MFI/MFI_check_measure_adjust.zip.

Post a picture of your engine compartment and, usually, it is pretty obvious what you have.

I know what i have, 2.2 litre, mechanical fuel injection, but the book i found said it was for "L", "K"...injections.....several injections with letters, NOT mechanical FI... Whats the link with the .zip supposed to do?.. Is there instructions on the site, or do i need a certain book, Does my mechanical fi have a " letter" name? Sorry, just a little confused.

I think I found the manual.... thanks.

Hi,

Hope it helps. If you use the search button here, you will find a weath of information to both enlighten and confuse you. Read carefully and good luck.

MFI on this board generally refers to the sequential injection system with a timed pump and individual throttle bodies.

the Jetronic mechanical injection is usually referred to as CIS


MFI is superior to CIS , in that it has the best throttle response(instant), but is more expensive and a bit more of a hastle to tune, doesn't lend itself well to changes in the engine(the pump has to fit the engine), it delivers fuel based on a space cam in the pump, wich is timed to the engine through a belt. because of the expenses, Porsche stopped using it in 74 for production engines although they kept using the system on race engines for at least another 8-10 years at which point they moved to ElectronicFI

CIS (the various Jetronic types) is more of a compromise to meet enviromental regulations, while still beeing affordable
it was used on anything from Porsches , Ferrari's to Volvo's and VW Golfs....throttle response is far from perfect, there's no individual throttle bodies , but it doesn't care what engine mods you do it (short of maybe very high lift cams) , is sort off self adjusting because it delivers fuel based on air mechanical metering




as far as i know , there are no books around that cover MFI , none except the Bosch service documents such as "Check Measure Adjust". Grady , how about you writing one ? i'm sure you'll have plenty of buyers :D 101 things to do with your MFI system ( or 101 things NOT to do )

The link MobileWrks posted is to a page explaining the Bosch CIS system known as K-Jetronic ... a rabbit trail you don't need to go down!

However, you already had the question posed by this thread answered days ago in your earlier thread ... had you bothered to check! Grady posted the link to Pelican's MFI page on 30 November 2005!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/253772-1971-911e-fuel-injection-problem.html

Soak the MFI pump in Berryman's B-12 Chemtool for a few days ... it usually frees up without having to do any dissassembly or adjusting at all! After freeing up, let the pump dry out ... then soak in Marvel Mystery Oil ... and turn it over a few times every day for a couple of days.

You don't need to be messing with internal adjustments to the MFI injection pump! All that will do is guarantee that it has to be sent off to a professional for rebuilding!!!

I have read this stuff, theres no real info there, it all runs around the subject but nothing to tell me how the "pump" actually works, even a couple of the breakdowns leave certain views out, For some reason Porsche is very cryptic anout these models, We did soak it and used 3 different chemicals, it was welded with varnish, had to be taken apart, and we will finish the job, once fe find some info on it. Thats why you have to send these off to have them "fixed".... If you had the info, or a better understanding of them, you could save yourself $1000... And they certainly dont want that..

I have read this stuff, theres no real info there, it all runs around the subject but nothing to tell me how the "pump" actually works, even a couple of the breakdowns leave certain views out, For some reason Porsche is very cryptic anout these models, We did soak it and used 3 different chemicals, it was welded with varnish, had to be taken apart, and we will finish the job, once fe find some info on it. Thats why you have to send these off to have them "fixed".... If you had the info, or a better understanding of them, you could save yourself $1000... And they certainly dont want that..

fact of life ... mfi pumps that get stuck and seized up... aren't always fixable with a soak... they are quite delicate that way and once they are well out of wack , they need to be sent off to a shop...

trying to rebuild it yourself migt very well leave you with a lot of parts and then the real shops won't even touch it anymore...

I will say this, I will never pay $1000+ to have a pump basically re-adjusted, I will learn how and do it myself, change to carbs, or sell and chaulk it to a little experience. Someone on this forum had to figure them out, has anyone even tried? It would be so beneficial If a person "cracked" the pump code. Talk about tweeking! My brother uprooted EFI from a 302 early '90s and installed it , and the wiring harness on his '71 Mach 1, 351 cleveland!.... Purrred like a perverbial kitten! .....Injectors, mass air, computer..... To my knowledge theres no manual to show how to do that either...!

good luck , you have all the tools to fabricate replacement parts then? cause you sure as hell can't order any...

what fabrication?..is something broke?.. TO my knowledge my pump needs adjusting, I am fairly sure nothings broke.

Lex,

I admire your tenacity. However, in the US, only a couple shops like Pacific Fuel Injection (Gus Pfister) or Henry Schmidt at Supertec have the experience, special tools, and the required inventory of used parts to correctly repair MFI pumps. Bosch sold all of the repair equipment and the entire inventory of spares back in the 1980's-- ever since then, the pumps are repaired with a dwindling amount of NOS parts and usable spare parts from other pumps. And it was never important to Porsche that the MFI system be cheaply rebuildable-- why do you think the 911T came with carburetors?

Sure, there is nothing preventing you from taking it apart and trying to get it back together. But knowing how to do that, knowing all of the settings and having all the experience to do it right the first time and not trash the pump or blow your engine, well, it's a long shot.

You found the right book, though. As you can see on the first page of the Repair Manual, the instructions have been updated to cover the double-row ("VR6") injection pump, which is called "PED 6 KL" which I am guessing means, in German, "Pumpe Einspritzung Doppel-Reihen." The single-row pump you see on the cover is probably not familar to you yet, but the MFI gurus here will recognize it as the single-row pump from the early 906E and 910 engines. Porsche used this technology as far back as the early 1960's.

So in that manual, you can see all the special tools and wrenches and procedures that must be followed EXACTLY for the pump to work correctly. The rebuilders who have experience with these pumps, and also the facilities to test the injection output per stroke through the pump's 0-4000 RPM speed range, have the ability to do that. I'm not trying to discourage you from doing it, but just making you aware that cracking open that pump is not for amateurs: you do NOT want the thing to fail when the engine is at wide-open throttle under load, or you will be spending a lot more than $1000 to repair the engine!

It would be far better for you to look around on Ebay or junk yards for a good working '71 E pump, identified by the ID number ending in -010, the trouble is, you won't save that much over a rebuilt one. Perfect ones, that have been filled with Marvel Mystery oil to preserve them go for around that, so you might not be better off buying used.

Conversion to carburetors was a popular thing to do back in the 1980's because so many people didn't understand, or wouldn't take the time to learn, how to properly set up and adjust the MFI system. So you see lots of 2,2 E's running around with Webers, which costs about 10 Horsepower, and doesn't have the same throttle response, not to mention originality, plus you still have to get a set of Webers or PMOs and change the electric fuel pump. These days, with the availability of the kind of information we have on Pelican, a lot of guys are converting BACK to MFI, which is why the stuff is getting expensive.

Anyway, good luck with your problem. If I were in your shoes I would call Henry Schmidt at Supertec and arrange to send your pump to him, you will save money, time and frustration in the long run.

if certain parts are welded by varnish. then the individual pistons might not be in good shape either...that's not an adjusting issue

and then what John said...

Lex,

When your friend took the pump cover off to unstick the pistons, and now they are out of wack, well, that's the kind of thing that requires a rebuilder to get involved.

If you have been reading the technical material about how the pump works, you know that the six cylinders of the pump have small clamps on the sides. These clamps have gear teeth, as illustrated below.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1133718583.jpg

Now, the way the pump changes the injection quantity is to rotate the cylinders, allowing more or less fuel into them. The cylinders are rotated through the action of the toothed rack in the photo acting against the toothed clamp.

In order to get the injection quantity the same between all six cylinders, the clamps are rotated slightly one way or the other, and then tightened down, then the injection quantity is measured on a special machine.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1133718882.jpg

That's a SPICA pump being tested by Wes Ingram Enterprises, but you get the idea. Photo copyright http://www.wesingram.com/hp.htm

The danger is, if you don't have the injection quantity the same, the engine might run, but it won't run well, and if one jug is lean and the others rich, a meltdown is coming.

I dont mean any offense to anyone, and appreciate all the help I have received. As far as carbs, I have a friend who has a set, so If I want to go that route I have the option. But I would prefer to stay origional.

I think we can get the car lined out, and pump adjusted without spending $1000. This car is 34 years old, and we are learning more and more every day, I have been working on BMW's for 8 years, and have never had a problem, that couldnt be figured out, we have never had to take any of our cars to the dealer. If all our efforts fail, I guess I 'll have to trade her for a BMW...:)

I, for one, know you mean no offence. Don’t worry about that.

In the Pelican tech link that Warren and I referenced you will find all the technical info about the pumps. You may just have to follow the links farther (and download some zipped pdf files.)

There are two distinctly approached here. You have found a BBS that is focused on DIY when possible yet recognizes limits. The other is to pay someone to do everything for you.

I don’t grind my own crankshaft. I send it to a professional, Porsche/BMW experienced crank grinder. On the other hand I can inspect a crankshaft to standards better than one can be ground.

Regardless, you must understand the technology so you can properly direct the process.

The same is true with MFI.

Since you have followed all the above links you know that a properly calibrated MFI pump is only part (small but important) of the overall picture. That is what CMA (and CMA2) is all about. The MFI pump is a part of a system. It is but one of many parts and all must work correctly for the system to properly function.

I appreciate your reticence to pay $1000 for a pump rebuild. Would you not pay for having a professional grind your BMW crankshaft or can you “clean it up” with some 800 grit?

BTW, I grew up in Louisville.

Best,
Grady

lex,

The 'Blue Book' [covers are blue poster stock paper on my original] offically called <b><i>C,M,A</B></i> is not a tutorial on the MFI system ... it is a guideline for tuning and troubleshooting by a technician that is expected to have been formally trained and expected to have the factory service manuals [volumes I & II for '65 - '71 models ... where the thory of operation of MFI is explained] at hand ...

The documents on the Pelican MFI Tips page are a good supplement to the factory manuals, and fill in the 'gaps' for those of us never exposed to factory training, which dealer mechanics were sent to back in the 1960s ...

For you to have declared all of this material as worthless after only skimming a few pages ... indicates an impatience that will guarantee failure. All of your BMW experience is worthless with respect to the MFI fuel injection system, since it obviously does NOT include 1972-76 BMW 2002 tii experience!

There are people here on Pelican who have mastered the MFI system, as well as repaired their CDI units and Speed Switches in the process ... without much documentation or training ... but, it took weeks or months of research and perseverance! Some professionals will tell you it is impossible to do as a DIY project, but there are exceptions ...

I wont never pay $1000 to have a crank turned either.

well yeah , but you couldn't do it yourself either?

I dont have a problem paying someone to do a specific job, but machine shops will turn a crank or size rods, they ahve set prices for 4 and 6 cylinders, they dont care what its off of, as long as they have the specs for the piece. And its usually a fair price.

What I am saying is the money these guys charge for "fixing" this pump, which from what I am reading is not wore parts at all, but varnish from sitting, clogs etc. Its way too excessive!

In many respects this isn't a reasonable car. Did you ever price the trigger for a door handle?

The rareness of the MFI has driven the repair and rebuilding of the pump to very expensive prices. I can remember giving $500 in 1983 for a 911E pump rbuild. Now 22 years later what would that price be? It's a complicated piece of machinery.

This situation of the repair price for induction systems is one of the driving forces behind the move to using EFI for replacement of the CIS on our cars. There are alternatives. When you look at carbs, they aren't all that cheap either. All of the alternatives will require compromises on your part.

It is conceivable that your pump wouldn't need rebuilding. Get on the phone with the rebuilders and talk to them. It might need some cleaning and recalibration.

David Duffield

Lex, I am on your side. There is an ex off road/stadium racer here in Long Beach that is a maverick mechanic and has been all of his life. He was a winner too, always accused of cheating, but things always checked out legal at tech. He is just that kind of guy that understands things.

He has never heard of Henry or Gus and didn't know you could send the pumps out to specialist. He tears them apart all the time.

If you like working with minatures like models and teadious things of that nature, you could have done this pump. But, if your friend failed to note the settings mentioned above and put the thing together by "sight," well, you could be in for a job. However, taking it apart again is not the end of the world.

A well known contributor here once told me to turn the part load 7 clicks

(right there I stopped typing about an hour ago and went to take one of these suckers apart. I have 3 of them, a 2.4 T, a 2.2 S and E. What an amazing piece of equipment!)

Lex, I think you're a brave man. If I knew the E pump was good, I'd take all the measurements off the various rods and such and let you set yours up like this one. But this one has never run in my presence. It is supposed to be rebuilt, it's darn near brand new looking. But, I don't trust it. I'm sending mine out to have it calibrated.

Good luck to you.

Thanks! I appreciate the confidence. I love the Porsche 911 body style, but its just a car, and someone had to build it origionally, Look at it this way, for $1000, I can build my own setup to calibrate these pumps, then from here on out I would be able to correct mine any time I needed to, its not rocket surgery :) !

It all good, I will eventually figure it out. Next time we will take pic's AS we disassemble it... the we might have a better chance of getting the adjustments back right.

Milt,

I've got a few E pumps that I'm hoping to find one that's the best for my 69E without have to rebuild the pump completely. What's the going rate for a recalibration vs. a rebuild? I didn't want to bother Gus or Henry with a price quote as I'm sure they're busy.

Thanks,

You should ask them.

After all, if you are a bonfide customer, why would any service type business not want to give you a quote to perform one of their services?

Harry,

Thanks, I've talked to both Henry and Gus for various issues and they are quite helpful but also very busy guys. I didn't feel the need to drag them from their work to answer the phone when I figured Milt already knew the going price. Besides, I'm not currently in the market to have the work done, just wanted a ballpark figure.

Ron,

Fair enough.

On this page, you will see the name "Fairchild." I suggest you call.

Now, one difference between one of the "famous" fuel injection services and Fairchild is the level of appearance. If you want beauty, you will pay for it.

Did any of these pumps ever get put back together and work?

Lex,
Adjust and recalibrate are very different.
Adjustment is easy (well sort of) calibration is different.

Following the advise already given could give you a working pump and you may not need to spend anything.

Adj is all in the CMA,... set pump timing, then access the adjments thro the back past the alt. with two easlily made tools.


Jeff

Lex, I feel for you and I can understand your thought process,but the vintage Porsche market is shinking everyday. Specializing in parts/service for these cars will continue to rise, pushing out all except the rich and passionate enthusiast. Parts are not readilly available to average Joe and they are extremely expensive to boot. You can however, convert to carbs and sell the MFI system or head off to a CIS model of 911

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