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Alignment results ???

my 82 sc is set at 24.5" on the front and 24" on the rear. i took it to one of our local alignment specialist and this is the result.

(lf) caster min +5.88 max +6.28------me +5.36
(rf) caster min +5.88 max +6.28------me +6.28

(lf) camber min +0.40 max +0.60-----me -0.52?
(rf) camber min +0.40 max+0.60-----me -0.80?

(lf) toe min +1/32 max +1/16---------me +1/16
(rf) toe min +//32 max +1/16---------me +1/16

(lf) inc. angle +10.28
(rf) inc.angle +10.48

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
REAR

(lr) camber min -0.12 max +0.12-------me +0.16??
(rr) camber min-0.12 max +0.12-------me -0.08??

(lr) toe min 0 max +3/32-----------------me +1/16
(rr) toe min 0 max +3/32-----------------me +1/16

anybody see anything here? why is my front camber so far off?

Last edited by jerhic; 12-06-2005 at 02:52 PM..
Old 12-05-2005, 01:10 PM
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Looks like the "specialist" really only know how to set toe! Does this shop align many 911's? The front camber should be easy to set within spec, as well as caster. It looks to me like he probably did not want to got throught the trouble of removing the sealer that is at the top of the strut mount that can restrict the movement of the strut during an alignment. I think I would take it back and have them do it right, or have them give you your money back becuase you still need to get it aligned properly.....

Cheers
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Old 12-05-2005, 01:28 PM
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Thats what i was thinking also. these guys don't do any 911's but came highly recomended? the tar on top of the shock tower is still there and was not removed or moved.
Old 12-05-2005, 01:56 PM
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I'd wonder more why you have positive camber in the LR, and negative camber on the RR. While setting the rear alignment on a 911 is a pain, I would expect them to be much closer.

But I don't want to be too quick to blame the shop. Did you tell them what numbers you wanted? (While your numbers are not optimum, they're fine for just toodling about town.) Did you ask why they could not hit the numbers you wanted? (Perhaps the bushings are shot. Perhaps the car was in a fender-bender in the past.)




Here's what you can do to see if they could have done better... (Working off the basic premise that camber is worth more than caster, and you want to get as much negative camber as possible.)

Open the front hood and look at the left strut where it goes through the strut tower. Is there room to move the strut inward, or is it against the body? Perhaps the strut tower opening is "out-of-round" and limiting travel? (My 911 suffered from this when I purchased it.) Next, remove each of the three nuts individually, and independently. (If you remove them all at once, the alignment will be lost.) Is there any room left to adjust the strut inward? Then, put all the nuts back. Jack the car up, and look up under the car to see if the strut mount is against the tower.

If any of these conditions exist, you've got as much negative camber as you're going to get without "tweaking" something.
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Old 12-05-2005, 02:26 PM
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the car is clean, never been bent. i don't think they adjusted the top adjustments as they are still covered with tar. at 24.5 on the front and 24 on the rear should i be able to get a lot closer?

Last edited by jerhic; 12-06-2005 at 02:54 PM..
Old 12-05-2005, 03:31 PM
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You should be able to have that car aligned in spec. Unless it has been bent, which appears not to be the case. Your car is low, nut it should still align okay. Take it to an expert at 911's and see what they think.

Cheers
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Old 12-05-2005, 03:48 PM
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Not nearly enough negative camber.
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Old 12-05-2005, 04:05 PM
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Thanks guys, i kinda thought that this was the case, and having your feed back makes me feel much better. i'll find someone who knows what their doing and get it done right this time.

thanks
Old 12-05-2005, 04:09 PM
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You're all missing this.....LF and RF caster can be closer together...caster almost 1 degree different is no good !

Wil
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Old 12-05-2005, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
The front camber should be easy to set within spec
Impossible unless the car is stock height.

Keep in mind that the more negative you go beyond spec the more you wished you had power steering and the more your front end will want to plow, so watch out.
Old 12-05-2005, 05:12 PM
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Wil, Did not miss it all, that was one of tip offs that the upper strut sealing compound was still in place and never disturbed. Also, Stlrj, I have owned a few pre-89 (4) 911's that had been lowered and aligned with in spec in the front, so no, it is not impossible......
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Old 12-05-2005, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
You're all missing this.....LF and RF caster can be closer together...caster almost 1 degree different is no good
You're crediting caster with too much effect. When I have a car aligned, I give only parting attention to caster. IMHO, one degree difference is not that big a deal. Provided it means I get the camber I want.

Quote:
Keep in mind that the more negative you go beyond spec the more you wished you had power steering and the more your front end will want to plow, so watch out.
I disagree. Negative camber will add nominal steering effort. On the other hand, positive camber can add quite a bit of steering effort. (But on the plus side, positive caster leads to negative camber gain when cornering, which is good for handling.) I find the biggest contributors to plow, or understeer, are inappropriate front/rear camber bias, and rear toe settings.


What we are really missing is why the tech did not get a better setting. Did he think the numbers obtained were sufficient, or was there a physical reason they could not be improved?
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Old 12-05-2005, 05:41 PM
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Wil or somebody,

Are these truly the recommended street specs for front camber on a 911? Positive??

(lf) camber min +0.40 max +0.60
(rf) camber min +0.40 max+0.60

Just curious . . . . .
Ed LoPresti
Old 12-05-2005, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
recommended street specs for front camber on a 911?

Recommended with what objective in mind? Minimal tire wear, minimal panic braking distance, optimal handling, or "keep the fool driver out of trouble"?

It's a grey world...
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Last edited by Capt. Carrera; 12-05-2005 at 05:55 PM..
Old 12-05-2005, 05:51 PM
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Don't think Porsche ever had positive camber as a "factory" spec..at least not on purpose..there have been some spooky settings for the "raised" USA cars at times...

A raised car can get positive camber pretty quickly..don't recall if it ever was made "official" as a by-product of the USA settings by Porsche...

Certainly not for ROW spec cars..."as intended" (as it were)....

Caster that is not fairly equal on both sides can make a car "steer" or "brake" with a pull to one side.... it should be noticable. If not, then "other" suspension settings could be set to mask these effects...making a tough call on getting the car sorted.

Wil
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Last edited by Wil Ferch; 12-06-2005 at 08:55 AM..
Old 12-05-2005, 05:55 PM
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Lots of cars have positive camber. Itís actually very common. And if I recall correctly, Porsche does call for positive camber in their factory setting range. And why not?
  • For one thing, it adds to straight-line stability and decreased stopping distances when doing straight-ahead panic stops. Think about it. The weight transfers forward, the nose goes down, resulting in negative camber gain. As the camber becomes closer to 0 degrees, the contact patch grows, maximizing braking forces.
  • In addition, positive camber will make the front feel very loose on corner entry. Driver will instinctively lift off the throttle. The car will then plow until it slows enough to regain traction and start to turn. (If you've ever driven something akin to a Ď79 LTD, you know exactly how this feels.)

Positive camber works to keep lawyers at bay.
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Old 12-05-2005, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Caster that is not fairly equal on both sides can make a car "steer" or "brake" with a pull to one side....
Good point, and I do need to point out that when cross caster is used, it's to compensate for road crown. Which means that the LH caster is usually greater than the RH caster. Just the opposite of what Jerhic's car is set with.

But enough trivia... Jehrhic needs to pick another shop, and some reasonable goals for them to reach. If they can't obtain the numbers, he needs to inquire why not, and if they have any suggestions on what "tweaks" can be made to obtain those numbers.
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Last edited by Capt. Carrera; 12-05-2005 at 06:23 PM..
Old 12-05-2005, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RaceProEngineer
Wil or somebody,
Are these truly the recommended street specs for front camber on a 911? Positive??
(lf) camber min +0.40 max +0.60
(rf) camber min +0.40 max+0.60
Just curious . . . . .
Ed LoPresti
I doubt it. I know for sure it is not on the Carrera. Should be a range of -3/16 degree to +3/16 degree although most of us run around -1 degree.
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Old 12-06-2005, 05:34 AM
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Well, Kurt, I doubt it , too. That is why I inquired of Wil, because he usually KNOWS these things.

My only reason for jumping in was to call attention to, and question, the supposed "Specs" which jerhic quoted above. That front camber "spec" (positive camber) looks awfully suspicious, even for a American market-raised, do-it-by-the-book, drive-it-to-the-market, 911 alignment. But, I wanted to be certain before inserting my foot squarely into my mouth!

The implication here is that, even IF the alignment shop has the knowledge and ability to do the suspension adjustments, it is all for naught if they are using INCORRECT parameters to start with!

Ed
Old 12-06-2005, 06:30 AM
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Looked it up in my official Spec Book for 78, 79, 80, 81 Models 911 SC, Turbo 3.3:

911 SC, Turbo
USA, Canada, Japan +30' +/- 10'

Any questions?

Joe

Last edited by stlrj; 12-06-2005 at 08:22 AM..
Old 12-06-2005, 08:19 AM
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