Gordon Murray describes the 911
 

Well, he was really giving an analysis of the Buggatti Veyron and comparing it to his McLaren... but I thought many of his comments particularly appropos for our cars.

For example: "Weight saving should be by design and not a post process. Weight is the car designer's biggest enemy. It works against you in every single aspect of vehicle dynamics."

"Achieving a good power-to-weight figure by applying huge horsepower to a heavy car is in no way the same thing as achieving the same ratio with a light car."

"For me, car design _is_ packaging. To create something truly forward-thinking, a designer has to challenge the accepted major component placement in an automobile."
- Gee -- does that sound familiar??

"I have a "real-world" checklist when designing road cars:
1. size or perceived size; is the car intimidating to drive?
2. ergonomics; primary and secondary controls, pedals
3. luggage capacity, cabin storage
4. drivability, slow traffic engine characteristics, overtaking
5. ride and handling
6. ease of parking"

Road & Track, January 2005, p. 65

Murray is now a writer for R&T, BTW. (!) And this was one of the best technical articles they have published in years - no surprise.

The 911 - even today - is superior as a real world road car - not to claim that it could keep up with the Veyron - but it optimizes all the criteria on his checklist.

The article is a devastating critique of the Veyron as a real world car - tho you have to read between the lines a bit. He points out that it is more of a technology showcase for VW Group than a real car.

Murray has been my idle from childhood. For fun I draw up designs for cars I think of and I stay true in all cases to the ideals Murray has expressed here and in his F1. For me he's light years ahead of the game.

Think about it people. In 1993 Gordon Murray developed a supercar so unbelieveable that to this day it remains somewhat unchallenged within the likes of Ferrari Enzos and Porsche Carrera GTs. Talk about forward thinking.

Just as a point of interest, on tonights Top Gear (here in the UK) Clarkson stated that the Buggatti will get to 200MPH before the Mclaren F1....... even if the F1 has a 120MPH head start. The Buggatti has also cost VW £5,000,000 ($8.5mill) per car making it somewhat of a bargain at £800,000.

Anyone truly interested in the brain of Gordon Murray should definately read the book that he co wrote describing the build of the McLaren F1 car. It is titled "Driving Ambition" and I think I know it cover to cover by now, very impressive stuff in there. Also there is an older Brabham book that I have which he was interviewed extensively for and a suspension book as well.

Also mr murray has left the McLaren group to start out on his own. After his dissapointment in working with Mercedes on the VIsion SLR he bought many of his ideas back from McLaren and has setup his own company. Interesting aside, when he left all but 3 of the engineers on the team that designed the SLR went with him. He is going to release his idea of what a modern supercar should be and will be priced like a 911 which will be followed up by what he called the most radical car ever (a city car he has been working on for the past 12 years or so). I heard this from him at the Art Center car show this past June.

If anyone thinks that Porsche has followed any of his mantras weight savings is definately not one nor is primary control feedback. The F1 weighs less than a mazda miata, has no power breaks, the shift system alone took over one month to design and perfect, the engine was a masterpiece of one of the greatest engine designers ever and there is no electrical gimmickry to be found seperating the driver from the car.

Hell even the speakers use special lightweight magnets to keep weight down.

Sorry I just love that car in every way and afaic nothing will surpass it unless he designs it.

Wt. savings _used_ to be a Porsche mantra - not so much as Lotus of course. Wienie King has taken the company away from what it was. Thx for the informative post - I'll be reading that book.

His philosophy seems identical to that Ferry expressed in the design of the 911.

Alas, Ferry is dead. Probably spinning in his grave.

I was reading an old issue of Panorama last night from February 1966. It mentioned that some of the design criteria for the 901 were greater speed, insofar as even the Super 90 and SC were being outgunned on the Autobahn, and the values of comfort, noise and cargo capacity, notably, a PAIR of golf bags.

randy the titles of the books that I mentioned earlier are:
"Brabham, The Grand Prix Cars" by Alan Henry
"Competition Car Suspension" bye Allan Staniforth

Long live the stripped down, lightweight, decently powered, full of feedback sportscar!

Thx - added to my reading list...

I just read that, twice.
I will probably need to read it 2 more times to get it ;)

Formula One hasn't been the same since Gordon Murray got fed up and turned his focus to road cars. F1 has always been about innovation, but to my mind nobody combined radical technology and stunningly beautiful cars the way that Murray did. Think of the early '70s Martini sponsored Brabhams with the Alfa boxer 12s, the BT46b fan car, one of my all time favorites the BT49 with no front wing that Piquet started out in, the skateboard looking BT55 with the laid over BMW 4 (never very successful, but a noble experiment), and finally those mid to late '80's McLarens that looked so fragile, but ran so strong.

I hadn't thought of him for a while, but as I write this I'm awed by what Gordon Murray accomplished in those two decades. And on top of that what he has designed since focusing his attention on road cars....nothing short of stunning.

Now if only he could be lured to Weissach.....

Weight is not the enemy. Its all in how you use it

It may not be the enemy, but it ain't your friend either. at best, a neutral player that a designer must finesse to behave like an ally.

I don't think Ferry is turning over in his grave - he liked the 928 & that was no ballet dancer - he was a realist. Given the march of time, market & regulatory demands, I think the 911's weight increase over 40+ yrs is not surprising, if unfortunate. I reflect upon my own gain over that period. Pretty close.

The incredible meaning of lightness was also central to the genius of his Daddy, Henry Ford, Alec Issigonis, & Vincenzo Lancia.

Hey Jim, that would be nice but I have a feeling there's too many political issues for him to create what we'd all like to see Porsche produce. I think it will really be interesting to see what he can produces on his own.

weight is not my enemy???????....if I did not have any I would be happy with 10 HP !!

Yeh - I'd like to see the engineering analysis showing the benfits of wt. on ANY aspect fo vehicle dynamics.

OTOH, I kept my sunroof...

Road holding weight is good. ;)

Jerry Kroeger

If you have no weight you have no gravity to work for you or against you, friction/centrifugal,....if road holding pwr came from weight a semi truck would be every ones ans

I think you're right Tom, and I think his experience working with 100 Mercedes engineers is what derailed the SLR project and led to his resignation at McLaren. When he did the F1 road car his team was 10 people and from initial design work to finished car was a little over 3 years.

I can't wait to see what he does on his own either. And for a good vehicle hp/lb ratio, I'll bet his motorcycle engined Rocket is as the name implies. :D

Wow $128 on amazon for USED... That's pretty pricy!

Weight is king. Fastest car around a track I have driven had only 140hp. Of course, it weighed 1180 lbs with me in it :), and was 30mm off the ground...

Chris
Former FC driver...

Been thinking about that comment most of the day... I don't think it as crazy as it sounds. There has to be some non-zero optimum wt. for a road car at least. The optimum wt. would be one where the attempts to overcome the very low friction (caused by very low wt. bearing down on the tires) with aerodynamic designs would create such odd shapes that the driver/passenger/cargo space would suffer way too much. i.e. you'd have to have something very thin to prevent side winds from sweeping you off the road. Call it the Wyoming winter effect -- when I lived in Wyo. it was common for the high winds to just blow people right off the road - in some cases even when they were stopped. The crowning glory was when the wind blew a freight train over.... Naturally, this would be worse on snow or ice. I'm guessing that side winds might be worse than high speeds.

BUT - I think it would be a very, very low wt. and one that no car has ever come close to. Maybe 100 lbs. or something. Reminds me of the famous optimum prey size for lizards story ... theoretical ecologist ahd laid out the optimum prey size for a generalized predator (i.e. a mathematical construct of a predator) for decades. Eventually, a guy tested the model -- the optimum size was orders of magnitude smaller than any prey that existed in the real world. There's a lesson for non-biologists there.....

how much do the formula cars weigh ? I was told the will drive upside dwn ( at speed ) 200mph?.....they generate so much dwn force....was a special on the TV a awhile back. Least that's what they said..........

The weight of a modern day formula one car may not be less than 600kg. That being said why not look at the weight of a go kart or a formula sae car, formula vee bla bla bla. Go karts dont weight much and it doesnt keep them from going ridiculously fast.

The current weigh limit of a F1 car is 600kg (including driver) but they actual weight much less. They are designed as light as possible and then the teams used very exotic (and heavy) materials as ballast on the bottom of the car. This help to lower the CofG and can be moved about to change the cars handling for different circuits. I once read that teams spend upwards of $1 million on ballast per year, this is based on material and freight costs.

A F1 car would be able travel upside down at as little as 50mph!

I didnt know tungsten was considered an exotic material? In the bottom board which is made of wood as per FIA rules. There is a company that makes these boards for the F1 teams and impregnates them with tungsten to add ballast at the lowest point of the car. Last I heard these boards cost anywhere from 50k u.s. to upwards of 100k u.s dollars. They go through at least one board a weekend, multiplied by three cars at a race, add in testing, it adds up to a hefty sum.

If anyone wants to see an F1 car with a super low drag kit on it search the archives at itv-f1.com for photos of the Honda ex BAR speed trials car that will be heading to the salt flats in hopes of topping 400kp/h.