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Help! Does anyone understand the footwell blower circuit?

Hi folks,

Here's a little background - The car is an 87 and I recently did the 'Wavey' replacement of the engine room fan since it was shot. Carrera replacement heater blower (long) It is manual heat, with the two center levers and the rotary 3 position dial switch with positions 0-1-2-3. Prior to replacing this fan, I could hear the footwell blowers activating as they should.

After installing the new fan, the footwell blowers will operate, but only at speeds above idle, which is quite annoying. For example, I'll have the two red heater levers pulled up, the engine room fan is on and the rotary switch at position two. As I cruise down the road and let off the gas to shift, the footwell blowers will quit until I engage the next gear and apply gas again. when I pull up to a stop light, they quit until I start off again. This problem is evident with the switch in all positions. Since they seemed to work fine prior to switching fans, it seems evident to me that something about the new fan is not allowing the blowers to operate at idle.

I've taken both footwell blowers out and inspected them. Both appear in pretty good shape with plenty of brush left. I lubricated the little felt pad at the top of each and tested them and they both work fine. They may have been replaced at some point, since both have an inline 10 amp fuse, and I understand only the 88 and 89 models had this.

Someone else posted this diagram:



All but the simplest circuits are voodoo to me however, so it's not helping me much. I have the Bentley, but that only seems to have the auto heat diagram, and is confusing the **** out of me. I've read that even at position 0, the fans will still be turning, and that does not seem consistent with the above diagram.

What is the 'engine compartment controller' pictured in the diagram?

Is the diagram even correct based on other people's experience?

Why will the blowers not work at idle?

Thanks for any help, but I appear to be a little out of my depth here...

ianc
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Old 12-30-2005, 01:12 PM
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Re: Help! Does anyone understand the footwell blower circuit?

Sorry to hear about your trouble with this Ian - must be driving you nuts.

A couple of things:

Is this the only electrical problem with the car? I wonder if your alternator/regulator are weak - do any of the lights get brighter with increased RPMs? Of course your footwells worked OK before the change so probably not.

I *think* the engine compartment controller is under the black cover near the rear fuses.

I have disconnected my footwell blowers because they need new motors, but I'm pretty sure they never ran in the "0" position.

Per the diagram, it seems that the problem would almost have to be in the variable speed switch, or the resistor pack, or due to a bad ground. But again, everything worked normally before so this is indeed confusing. I can see why you'd think it's due to the Grainger motor, but my footwells worked normally until the motors got really noisey (which they were before the Grainger motor replacement). I cleaned and lubed them and they were fine for a while then got noisey again, so I just pulled the fuses.
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Old 12-30-2005, 01:30 PM
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'engine compartment controller' is labeled C in this stolen photo. Engine compartment left, under the plastic shield.



I don't fully understand the wiring of it, but it does control the footwells.

Another Ian
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Old 12-30-2005, 01:36 PM
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Here is the wiring of the relay:

Terminal 12 - Hot from Front Fuse Panel "key on"
Terminal 7 & 8 - Hot from Fuse 2 (Rear Panel)
Terminal 3 - Hot from Fuse 1 (Rear Panel)
Terminals 5 & 6 - Output to Main Blower
Terminals 4 - Output to Heat Controller (the dreaded Footwell link)
Terminal 2 - Ground

Note: Relay is bolted to the housing & relies on this for grounding. Main blower will not work if not bolted securely

Also stolen from a post somewhere . . .

The other Ian again
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Old 12-30-2005, 01:40 PM
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It appears that several people have had trouble with the footwell blowers after the update. looks to be hit and miss. One trouble with your diagram is that it is a "simplified version" it does not show the the circuitry of the engine compartment controller. It must be a voltage drop issue or resistance of the new fan vs the old fan. It seems the controller must sense that the rear main fan is running before the footwell blowers will function. I suppose that if the alternator is on the low side at idle and the new fan has a bit more resistance than the old then the controller would not think the rear fan is running and not engage the footwell blowers. When the idle picks up and the voltage increases the footwell blowers would kick in. Maybe everyone should post what their voltage is at an idle and we can see if this is what is stopping some and not others. My car is not here right now so try and post idle voltage tomorrow. This would not however explain the one that don't run at all. Maybe a resistor of some sort around the fan to increase the current to the controller. I am not qualified to determine what kind of resistor would be used, to not burn everything up.
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Old 12-30-2005, 01:48 PM
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Thanks for the help guys.

Wavey, it's not really driving me nuts, no. If it gets too irritating, I can just move the dial switch to '0' and not worry about it. The engine room fan works quite well. It's just one of those things that's somewhat annoying since IT DOESN'T WORK RIGHT! The extra boost from the footwells is handy when you need max defrost too.

Ian, thanks for the pic and the pin-out.

I think I understand the basic operation of the system, but I just can't understand why its operation would vary with RPM. It doesn't seem to make sense to me, since I don't see anything in it that would be RPM dependent.

It would seem that the problem must lie in the controller however, since the rest of the components are fairly straightforward relays and switches.

Or possibly you're on to something with the weak alternator theory Wavey. Haven't noticed the headlight brightness varying with RPM, but that's about the only tie-in with RPM I can see, not knowing what's going on in that 'controller'. Or maybe the ground theory where a shaky ground is only allowing activation with greater current flow? Oy...

ianc
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Old 12-30-2005, 02:00 PM
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ianc, I am not an expert by any means, but I've had a lot of cars over the years, so here's my .02: if the fan only runs at one speed, no matter the speed selected, it is likely the resistor pack, from my experience with 2 such meltdowns in the past. (I can't give a scientific explaination, just experience!) Good luck and HNY, Glenn
Old 12-30-2005, 02:02 PM
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dfink,

your suppositions make sense to me. I'll be happy to test idle voltage and report back. I assume you're talking about a test across the battery terminals at idle? Let me know.

If your suppositions are correct, possibly cleaning up the connections for the blower fan and its ground might lower the resistance enough...

Glenn, the fan operates at all three speeds, so I don't suspect the resistor block, but thanks for the input!

ianc
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Old 12-30-2005, 03:13 PM
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Porsche Crest I'll give it a shot (long)

I'll try to interpret your wiring diagram in layman's terms but must admit I'm not familiar with the 1987 so I'm going to write this purely based on the drawing. I know you mention one fan but the drawing shows two so I've reviewed it on that basis.

First, there are two separate circuits involved. The fans are tied together in parallel. See the dots above each fan tying them together. Switch position 3 is the high speed setting and is the easiest to explain so I'll discuss it first. The 12v from Fuse 2 at the top of the drawing is used for the high speed setting. For the fans to to come on two things must be present at the same time. First, you must get the +12vdc from the Controller to pin 86 which is on the coil of the Aux Blower relay. Second, the switch must be in position 3 (high speed). This connects the negative of the coil (pin 85) through the switch to ground completing the circuit and running the fans.

The next circuit controls the variable speeds. This is switch positions 0, 1, and 2, (if you can call off a speed). Anyway, in position 0, the fans should not run at all because the +12vdc from the controller is connected to nothing.

In switch position 1, the current must flow through two resistors. They look to be 85 ohm and 23 ohm but its hard for me to tell from the drawing. This means a larger voltage drop is taken across the resistors leaving less voltage for the fan and consequently the lowest speed.

In switch position 2, the 23 ohm resistor is bypassed, meaning the current only has to flow through the 85 ohm resistor, meaning less voltage drop across the resistor and more available for the fan and consequently a faster speed.


The common variable in both circuits is the Engine Compartment Controller. If it does not provide the +12vdc, neither the high speed nor low speed settings will work. So, you need to find what actually operates this controller. That I don't know.

Here's is how you can test both circuits.

The easist test is to check for 12vc at pin 4 of the controller while the car is idling. If it's not there, then have someone press the accelerator while you continue to monitor the voltage. If it is absent at idle but present when you press the acclelerator, then the problem is the battery/alternator or the controller itself. See if you have 12vdc available at the battery at idle. If you have 12vdc out of the controller at idle, you'll need to go to these other checks.

I would probably disconnect the car battery at this point. This eliminates any possible back feed issues.

For the high speed circuit, merely lift the wires from pin 85 and 86 of the relay coil and connect a 12vc battery; + on 86 and minus on 85. The fan should run on high speed. I keep a couple lantern batteries just for these type tests.

For the low speed circuit test, first reconnect the wires to 85 and 86. Then lift the wire labeled 4 from the engine compartment controller. You are going to use the plus from your battery to simulate this output. When you connect the + to the wire that was lifted and the minus to the ground side of the fans, you should be able to run the fans at the two varying speeds. If the speed doesn't vary, you have a problem with the resistance pack. If the speed does vary, you have a problem with the controller. It could be the controller itself or whatevery logic that tells it to ouput the 12vdc at pin 4.

If one of these checks helps, there's no further need to discuss fan resistance. If it doesn't I can post back on what issues can be happening if the resistance of the single new fan is significantly more than the two fans in parallel shown on the drawing. Howver, at this point, no need to take up more server memory with that discussion.

Last edited by autobonrun; 12-30-2005 at 05:19 PM..
Old 12-30-2005, 05:12 PM
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Hi Autobonrun,

Thanks for the exhaustive explanation! I pretty much understood the workings of the three positions already. I guess I made myself sound stupider than I actually am.

The diagram is inadequate in that it does not show the main blower fan in the engine room. My understanding is that the two footwell blowers won't run unless the controller receives a signal from the main fan indicating that it is running.

I'm fairly certain that your test of pin 4 at the controller will show no voltage at idle, but voltage as RPM's increase. I have not tested this for certain, but I will do so. This is only my supposition due to the behaviour exhibited by the footwell blowers however, which seem to work at all speeds. Since this is the case, connectivity and ground issues to the footwell blowers, or resistor pack problems can be discounted.

I believe it is, as you say, either that the controller itself is malfunctioning, or, as suggested by dfink, that it is not receiving a signal from the main blower fan. Since the footwells worked prior to changing out the fan, I would suspect the latter. If this is the case, then some operating parameter of the fan or perhaps some vagary of the charging system, or a combination of the two is preventing this.

Since the controller seems to be a black box with very little known about how and what type of signal it receives, it's difficult to gauge where the problem could be, and I was hoping for a little more info on the controller itself.

Thanks alot for the help!

ianc
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Old 12-30-2005, 05:32 PM
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Ian

This is the best diagram to explain the wiring of all heating circuits including the controller. From type911.co.uk
Scroll down to - Problems with your Heating System on pre 1989 911's? Check This Out!!! .



Note terminal 1 goes to the speedometer & 11 goes to the starter solenoid.

Ian
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Last edited by imcarthur; 12-31-2005 at 07:14 AM..
Old 12-31-2005, 07:11 AM
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yep, I would love to hear about the terminal 1 speedo connection?
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Old 12-31-2005, 11:47 AM
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Hmmm.... I must have wound up in the wrong thread on this. There are too many going right now. Anyhow I will repeat. My voltage if anyone cares is 14.05 at idle and 13.8 at idle with headlights on. The front blowers work at each setting.
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Old 01-01-2006, 05:59 PM
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dfink, I think you're in the right place. I tested mine today at idle and got 14.4 at idle and 14.25 with headlights on. Mine... Umm.... do not work. From this, can we infer that low voltage is not an issue? I think your voltages are functionally the same as mine. Or enough to theoretically rule out low voltage to the main fan as a possible cause?

ianc
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Last edited by ianc; 01-03-2006 at 12:31 AM..
Old 01-03-2006, 12:19 AM
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From the very knowledgeable dfink in a parallel thread:

Quote:
Just spent a couple of hours trying to figure out that rear controller. I have an old one where the rear blower still works but the foot wells don't. I don't see why this can't be simplified dramatically. I am not an electrical engineer but in in essence it appeats the controller is just two relays. One to run the rear blower and one to run the front blowers. In my case relay 1 is working but relay 2 doen't not engage. If I manually engage relay 2 the footwell blowers will function. For some reason however Porsche has decided to complicate things with a control circuit "logic circuit" of some sort. Maybe the same controller is used for the auto heat. There appears to be a heat circuit breaker of some sort and a potentiometer that controls who know what. Anyhow it look like for us manual heat people a simple two relay replacement could be made to make all these little and expensive problems go away. Some of the diagrams show one of the pins going to the speedometer for some reason. Unplugged my controller and the speed-o still works.
dfink,

please allow me to respost your contribution in my other thread: Dumping the footwell blowers? I'm directing people reading that thread to here.

I find your description of the controller very interesting. Any chance you could post pics of the internals here? Draw a diagram of it?

If what you say about the 'controller' being just (with manual heat), a double relay is on the money, it seems to me that a DME relay should be up to the task and a helluva lot cheaper than the factory controller...

ianc
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Old 01-03-2006, 12:39 AM
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Ianc

Yes, the same controller does AutoHeat too. My problem is the same as Dfink's - everything works BUT the footwells, & they work when wired directly. So I've suspected the controller.

Here's the inside of the controller:



And I think this is the electronics internals if anybody can understand the symbols:



Ian
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Old 01-03-2006, 02:47 AM
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ok, here goes...Ian, what you have just posted is more of a flow chart then a schematic of the controller. It appears that fuse 1 in the engine compartment fuse panel provides power for the footwell blower switch in positions 1 and 2. The 12 volts enters the controller thru a Red/black wire that connects at terminal 3 on your drawing, passes thru the relay contact [when the relay is energized] and exits the controller on terminal 4 via a black wire to the blower speed switch. Notice in the drawing above yours that the black wire on the blower speed switch also routes power to pin 86 on the aux relay in the trunk. This relay is used to provide the high current needed when the footwell blowers are cranking at full speed. Power exits on pin 85 and goes back to the blower speed switch ( pin 4) where it waits for a ground connection. When the switch is moved to position 3 the ground connection is established turning on the high speed indicator light ( as if you couldn't hear the howl of the blowers) and activating the solenoid on the aux relay which closes the contacts and routes 12v from fuse 5 to the blowers.
Terminal 2 on your drawing is ground for the controller.
Terminals 7 and 8 are power from fuse 2 in the rear panel. This connection is switched by a relay in the controller. It appears that the relay is activated logically by the circuits on the controller board. Once activated, the voltage is directed to the engine compartment blower thru terminals 5 & 6 and is also sent to the solenoid of the second relay thru a diode?...which is how the 12 volts is directed to the blower speed switch that was mentioned in the beginning of this rant. If the footwell blowers aren't working but the rear blower is you might want to look at that second relay.
ok, now back to the logic circuit.
Terminals 11 and 9 are connected to the starter circuit. So, when you crank none of the blowers will draw current. I'm guessing that 9 is only connected when the car is fitted with Autoheat.
Terminal 10 is the connection to the blower temperature switch. I'm not sure if this is over temp protection for the blower or to provide additional cooling for the engine.
Terminal 12 appears to be power for the controller circuit via fuse 8
Terminal 1 is the infamous speedometer connection. I don't have a clue what this is doing. I've often wondered if in controlled the rear fan speed based on the speed of the car???
The system gets more complicated with the addition of AutoHeat. The duct sensors prevent air flow until the system heats up and the interior sensor turns the system on and off based on temp settings.
Ok, thats all I know. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 01-03-2006, 06:42 AM
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I have to state this again: for a sports car that needs lightweight, simple auxiliary systems, the HVAC system on these Carreras in unbelievably complex, unreliable and ineffective. Fresh air fan, AC condensor fan, AC evaporator fan, engine heater blower, two footwell blowers (total of 6 fan motors, all of them crap!), plus all the associated relays, controllers, wiring, switches, ductwork, etc. And to top it off, the A/C and fresh air systems don't do the job. What the Hell were these highly educated German engineers thinking? This could have all been accomplished with one substantial blower, with a simple speed control, to push air into the passenger compartment, the source of the air (fresh, heated or cooled) being changed with a couple of flaps. Plus maybe a fan for one of the two condensors. It's really tempting to tear everything out and reengineer it in a simpler way. Or just tear it out and suffer in the heat or cold.
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Old 01-03-2006, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wavey
...What the Hell were these highly educated German engineers thinking? ....
Simple: kluging together a solution whose form-fit is dictated by the rear engine air-cooled 911ness of it all.

A kluge is always less reliable, more cumbersome, and more expensive.
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Old 01-03-2006, 07:27 AM
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Imcarthur is right (very helpful photos, thanks Ian), and it's better thought of as the principal relay for the entire heating system. If it's shot, the rear blower won't work, and the footwells don't work without the rear blower being activated -- it all cascades from there. If your footwells and rear are coming on, that relay controller thing seems to be operational. Which is a very good thing for you -- just replaced mine from the dealer, and it's expensive ($180 +). Check the relays in the front and the fuses beneath the controller too.

And Wavey is soooo right -- for all the vaunted Teutonic engineering acumen, some things on these care are downright primitive or absolutely amateur or senseless ! The hvac on this car is the prime example.
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Old 01-03-2006, 08:07 AM
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