I was just trying to make a point, (maybe I ment up-hill) :D

I had a '95 993 coupe for a while and then bought a 73 911E coupe. It didn't take long for me to loose interest in the 993, which has subsequently been sold. Now, don't get me wrong...993's rock. But what does that tell you about the early (longhood) 911's? :D :D :D

Why do think the 73 E is a better track car? Just curious.

I personally think they both are equally suited to the track. The Carrera would be quite a bit faster, but the '73 E would be fun also.

Mike

if there was only something in between..... oh an early SC!!

IROC

please read my first post.

A stripped down version of either car would make great track cars.

In stock form, the 73 is MUCH more agile then the Carrera. The E cams make good torque (more torque then the 73 911 S and, according to Car and Driver, is quicker then an S). That being said and tons of first hand driving experience in both cars, the relatively stock 73 E is not as comfortable as the Carrera, lacks AC, decent stereo and great brakes but is definitely quicker.

Chris
73 911 E

I really doubt the '73 is quicker than a 3.2 on a track. Both cars being equal (stock). I think you'd get better track times and be more comfortable in a 3.2.

Race for pinks?

just kidding

Chris

73 911 E

LOL!!!

But seriously, does anyone have any lap times with these two cars?

Post 'em.......

I'll be the first to admit (like in a earlier post) that I don't have ANY seat time in a long hood P-car.

I think this is a good thread........

Chris,

My only point was that by most measuring sticks, the Carrera is going to be the faster car on the track. Now, the '73 might be alot of fun to drive, but it's going to be slower than the Carrera. Does that make the Carrera a "better" track car? For most people, yes.

Just to add some numbers to the discussion (and for my own curiousity), I went to the PCA club racing results (picked Sebring for 2006). The '73 E is an H class car and the Carrera is in F. Assuming both cars are built to the limit of the rules (most club racers are) then looking at the qualifying times we should be able to draw some conclusions.

The fastest Carrera appeared to be an '86 with a time of 2:35.7. There were no 73 Es running, but the *fastest* H qualifier ran a 2:47 and change. Now there could be differences in driver capability, etc., but 12 seconds is an eternity on the track.

Now this is just one data point, but I would have to believe that very rarely are H class cars going to be quicker than F class cars. Can a 73 E be modified to be a fast track car? Sure. So can a Carrera.

Mike

If you want your Carrera to feel as light and nimble as your 69 or 70 911 then why not have it aligned to the same specs?

Cheers,

Joe

I've done several DE's in a stock Carrera. I've also done several in a stock 72E. In many cases my buddy was there in his 'slightly' modified 86 Carrera. On the street my E would just pull away from him. However, on the track I didn't have a chance. He had more downforce, tire and top end.

I think a prepared 73E would be very competitive against a stock SC. They'd both run in the same class. The E could have the same tires and suspension as the SC, but bigger brakes, bigger wing and be much lighter. You'd be giving away some hp, but the additional braking and downforce should at least make it interesting.

Your analysis is spot on Mike. The carrera may not feel faster, but it is. Stock vs stock, it'll walk away from the early car (BTDT) unless its an RS. The carrera can handle bigger wheels/tires and a good alignment will true up the handling of the carrera in question.

Also, with regard to the info about the early E vs early S -- an early S would have a better chance of keeping up. The slight torque advantage of the E wouldn't be as useful at the track. See:

Analog Mike's Engine Graphs

Also, the weight requirements for PCA club racing contribute quite a bit. A 70E at 2245 lbs has a lb/hp ratio of 14.51. The '84-'86 carrera is spec'd at 2662 lbs and 12.86 lb/hp...all per the 2006 PCA club racing rules. It would be easy to get both cars below those weights, but then you're not talking apples any more.

Uhhh -- No! :rolleyes: The 72 E made 152 lb/ft of torque while the S made 159 lb/ft. The difference is that the E makes that 152 lb/ft at a more reasonable engine speed (4500 RPM) then the S (which requires 5200 RPM to hit it's torque peak.) Basically the E will outperform the T from 3000 to 4500 RPM, but above that the S trumps both of them, and ultimately achieves a higher torque output. Contrary to conventional wisdom, a 906 cam'd engine will generate more torque then the T, E or S, but you'll have to spin the motor past 5500 RPM to find it.

avendlerdp:

No doubt your "longhood" feels 1,000 lbs lighter than your 84 Carrera 3.2. It is probably in the neighborhood of 400-500 lbs lighter! That hurts the turn-in feel, every aspect of handling, braking, and acceleration of the Carrera.

The good news for the Carrera/SC owners that don't have the $$$ to spend on a solid early RS Clone with a 3.0,3.2, or 3.6 is that they can strip a lot of that extra weight off their cars without spending a ton of dough! Then, they will have a car that is about as nimble as a "longhood", has tons of power and torque over the 2.2/2.4, and should be dead reliable.

I personally had to decide whether I should sell my 1987 Carrera 3.2 Targa for an early Coupe. With the advice I got from other owners that currently own early 911s and Carrera 3.2s, I decided to keep my Carrera and begin a lighten and tighten project. After removing 175 lbs from my car, I can tell you it is transformed! It feels just like you describe your "longhood" except it has tons more hp and torque.

I can't wait to shed another 100 lbs off my car, install my Bilstein Sports and freshen up my bushings. I am thinking it will be 911 nirvana!

Mike

Oh yes, I almost forgot to mention, that G50 Transmission is like butter at room temperature--Hehe!

Mike

you mean it doesn't transmit torque well?

- just a joke...

Anyway, address tire widths, infl. pressures, and wt. and you should be having more fun...

You can also stuff all the mechanical parts of a Carrera under the early car...

Don't need AC with the top off; couldn't hear the stereo anyway; high backs make it a bit more comfortable and the '73 brakes just make it more exciting! :D
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1139963070.jpg

Wow! Lots of thoughts here. I did not mention how much faster in a straight line my Carrera is. A lot faster. On a track like Willow springs big track the Carrera would kill the T. It's on the super tight canyons in the Santa Monica hills that the T feels like it is doing better. I guess all that weight matters a lot.

As for the alignment thing, does anyone know the specific differences of the two cars. I would re align the Carrera right away if I knew what to change.

-Alex

Oh My!

David, your 73 Targa is magnificent!

Randy:

As I stated above, one can stuff (transplant) a 3.0, 3.2, or 3.6 in to an early car if one can afford to. For the rest of us pitiful SC/Carrera owners that appreciate light weight performance, weight reduction for our cars and refreshing the suspensions will just have to suffice... I will be sufficing with a big smile on my face!

For my tastes and use, I agree, "longhoods" are the ultimate as long as they have a 3.0, 3.2, or 3.6, with fat tires, an updated suspension, and paint work that might make "R Gruppe" members cringe. Think BBII.

Mike

afford... but he already has 2 whole cars... right?

You should be able to get pretty close to the wt. of an early car by removing things from any of the bumper cars.

I agree -- Black Booty II set the standard.