Question about a'72 911T Project
 

Hey guys, I am new on here and I am currently looking for a 911 Targa, I have come across a '72 911T that is in the middle of a complete restoration, the car has been stripped, media blasted, and any rust areas repaired, (new front suspension pan, and drivers side door jam area.) The engine has been rebuilt and currently has 9,000 miles on it and was upgraded to "911S" engine specs. It also has had all new bushings and suspension items redone on the car as well. And there is an additional 5,000 in new parts for the car including new seals for the whole car, and a new rear chrome bumper. I am going this weekend to verify everything and more than likely I will be bringing it home with me. The asking price is 5,000 for the car, the main question that I have is, would this car have more value being put back to a stock body, or modifying it to wide body turbo look with the steel fender flares and changing the color to black (original color is red)? Oh yeah, it has only had 3 owners since new. I will greatly appreciate the input. Thanks, Tim

First, welcome!

Next, (going out on a limb here), you are aware that 911T does not necessarily mean Targa, right? I've had many people assume that, since I own a "T," it's a targa. Not true.

Finally, do a search on early car prices. I'm doubting that the car would be worth more with a widebody conversion. I'd say leave it the way it is. Also, I don't understand the rear chrome bumper thing. Maybe it has new chrome bumper guards?

If the car really has a rebuilt "S" spec engine, and the rust has been repaired, the price doesn't sound too bad. Be prepared to put another $3-5K in paint, and another few grand in the "misc" column.

Still, it sounds like a project.

You've come to the right place.

Jim

Jim,

Thanks for the reply, yes your right it's bumper guards not bumper that's my mistake and I'm aware of the T not meaning Targa, but thanks for checking, I had already spoke to the current owner.

As for paint & upholstery I do my own (I use Dupont ChromaBase.) The guy also has all of the old engine parts, cylinders, pistons, etc. The car also has a new drivers outside rocker. It was a driver when disassembled by the current owner, and supposedly he has labeled and bagged all parts as it was disassembled, but I do expect to put at least another couple thousand or so into the car to ensure it's right, but from the way he talked he has already bought everything necessary for assembly so we'll see about this.

I just don't want to sink 8-10K in something that wouldn't be worth it, but I know it has been done correctly thus far and would be finished that way.

Tim

It sounds like a lot of solid work has already been put into the car. In addition I've never seen a modified body (i.e. turbo flares, slant nose, etc) increase the value of a '72.

Early 911's are desireable in stock form. Spend that extra money on making it look like it rolled off the assembly line and you will never be dissapointed.

I want to chime in on this, too. Generally, a widebody conversion needs not only sheetmetal, but special wheels or spacers. It will never return the full cost, and will generally reduce the marketability of the car when you eventually sell it.

i'd schedule out the cost to finish and see where you end up. sounds neat though.

one question though, was the crank replaced with one from an E or S? been reading a lot on rebuilding 911 engines and i know the T crank isn't counterweighted. S cams are high rpm performers and T cranks are not (paraphrasing a lot of stuff there).

Erik

Do this restoration for love, not for resale value. Because in the end when you sell, you will lose money. That's a guarantee. And if your total budget for the project is $10,000, you should seriously consider another type of Porsche -- a 944 or 914. There's this old saying about 911's... They're all $20,000 cars. You might not start there but you'll end up there one way or another.

(Then there are some us who have at least $20,000 invested and we smile every mile.) SmileWavy

The 72 2.4 T crank is the same as the other two engines (E&S). Earlier T engines it was not. HTH. As a 72T owner, I would recommend you just build the components up without changing the body lines. Is the motor still MFI? Make sure you get the old T MFI system if it is still around. Get ready for a slippery slope, throwing money all the while. But it is fun. Make sure the tinworm is under control.

so 2.4 cranks are all the same but T's are different on 2.2 and 2.0?

(sorry about the mini hijack)

Erik

is the price $5K for the car, plus $5K for the parts. or is everything "out the door" $5K?

i have the same car. the body was finished/painted (not original) and had new interior (not original). engine was machined, but i assembled. over the last six years, it will be $20K project. no two ways about it...

zotman is correct about the cranks, and actually, all 2.4 and 2.7 are the same...

Yeah, I'm posting a gratuitous pic here...but with a purpose...
maybe somebody else could post a slant nose conversion pic? Let the guy compare...
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1141426200.jpg

Definitely keep it stock. Since you are painting it yourself, and a lot of work has been done on it already, I would not guarantee you will lose money on it. But don't plan on an early retirement, either. If you widebody it, then you will lose money, and that is a guarantee.

Well, I guess I have a bit more checking to do on this car, I am waiting a call back from the current owner so I can go look at it. kucharskimb, it is 5,000 for the car including all the of new parts that he has bought, That's a big savings for me :) and a big, big loss for him :( I'm not sure about the fuel injection but I will definitely find out. I've seen the slant nose conversions there is a '68 model on ebay right now for a few thousand ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4617066011&rd=1&sspage name=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 ) By the way that's a beautiful pic above, is that yours pwd72's? Oh yeah the next question would be should I put it back to the orinial color - red or would it hurt the value to much to change it to say black? That's probably a bit early for this question.

Tim

It sounds like the car will get a total respray, so now is the time to change teh color if ever. Stay period, (black works) and I imagine you will be fine. If the car is 100% original, then the original color is important. But it sounds like there are a few changes.

Leave the body as is, or go RS if you need the room for rubber, but it will add the cost of wheels, etc to the total.

And for $5K, the engine alone is nearly worth that!

Keep it narrow

aaaaahhhhhhhh.........got my porsche porn fix for the morning!

Well, I went to look at the car yesterday, it wasn't completely what I imagined (as usual) but the engine has definitely been rebuilt, it also has the turbo valve covers, the disappointment was that the entire body was not media blasted, only the quarters and passenger door, and the rust areas were not completely cut out, more will have to be cut to make it right, and the drivers door showed a slight bit of sag, it could be due to previous patch panel (the qtr area that meets the door) not correctly done when it was put in (it was placed over top of the old one) because the frame is solid as well as the floor pans, and the front suspension pan had been replaced previously. It also had dealer a/c but he removed it and through it away as he was planning on making a track car. The car still needs the front pedal area, drivers outer rocker replaced and drivers qtr area the meets the door jamb. The driver outer rocker isn't bad, but he has a brand new inner and outer rockers for both sides, so I might just replace them all if I get it. What I did like was that all of the fuel lines were replaced, fuel tank has been lined, seats were original recaro's, rebuilt engine with turbo valve covers and upgraded to "S" engine specs, (but no documentation he didn't get it from previous owner but he did have all of the old cylinders, pistons, heads and valve covers) I made him an offer of 4500.00 he is suppose to let me know this evening. Oh yeah, it also has all new bushings and shocks, original Targa wheels with tires and a set (4) of Fuchs' rims. Targa top was in pretty good shape, the only part I noticed was the headliner had a small place in it, no biggie though. I took my camera but I forgot to get pics, sorry guys. Well, I am now waiting for his reply and waiting, and waiting........

Ohio911guy,

IMHO, stock is the only way to go with an early car:D

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1141835627.jpg

FWIW, I paid $9000 for my'72T last summer(right place, right time:eek: ) and just had it appraised for insurance at $20,000! Completely original(with respray in original color), 110k miles. Slant nose conversion would cost a ton and probably knock at least 5-7k off the value, even if well-done.

doing a slant nose conversion on a longhood car? Might as well get that 'turbo look' 68 912 someone else on here was all hot for.

keep it narrow, keep it stockish.

People who buy '72T's don't do it for the huge horsepower and big tires. They buy it because the cars are a time-warp machine, a throwback to the end of the golden era of sports cars.

Accordingly, to slant-nose it and widebody it would be to destroy most of its value. I also believe, but I'm a purist, that if you have the opportunity to paint it the original color, you should absolutely do that, and even shoot original Glasurit. Then again I bought my '66 which had been repainted black knowing that the original color was Irish Green, and I wanted Irish Green.

A correct early T that looks perfectly stock but with the power of an "S" motor would be a joy to behold, and is the combination many dream about-- lower priced chassis with the fun of the S motor. I say do it.

Hmmmmm...thats a lot more rust than advertised.......

Sorry.
Three words -- RUN. FOREST. RUN.

Yeah it's a bit more rust than I expected, when he told me it was media blasted, I assumed the whole car was blasted and all the rust was completely gone, but with the parts he has, all I would have to purchase would be the front pedal pan, then start prepping the car for paint after I put the other panels in. The rebuilt and upgraded "S" spec engine is the most attractive feature. As for glasurit paint, I would have to go elsewhere other than around where I live because the local Glasurit dealer cannot mix their paint correctly or even match their own paint that was mixed just a few hours earlier, that's why I switched over to Dupont (It costs more but the service makes up for it!)

Hmmmm. OK, thats some serious work for a DIYer, but not impossible or even THAT hard for a skilled DIYer with tools like a spary area, griders, compressors and so on.

I agree with my buddy John Cramer, that the end result of a early body with an S engine is a very desirable combo.

The remaining investment in metal bits will be low, but the labor is not to be scoffed at.

Hows the trim? That stuff can add up.

I think I would want to be really sure about the engine. With a change to S specs, what has been done to the fuel system? MFI?? If the guy has a built and functioning MFI system, thats huge.

Still, $4500 is cheap if the trans and the engine are all good to go.

Sikkens makes a great paint too, but you are right that the paint GUY is as important as the paint TYPE!

Sounds like a big project, but you sound fairly competant as well. Have fun with it and never ad up the recipts. =)
In addition to this board, you may want to check out www.early911sregistry.org. We have a good message board there as well which will be able to help you with all of the esoteric little details and parts sources you will need as you restore an early car. We also organize a weekly lynch mob for people who convert helpless long-hoods to Turbo Slant Noses! ;) j/k

Yes the engine and trans is good, the MFI is stock and working, the engine is clean, he e-mailed me back and I am getting it for 4500.00 :) . He has brand new aluminum or maybe stainless outer rocker trim - both sides, new seal plates (I hink that's right), new seals for the glass, except for the back window, body seals where the rear bumper skirts(?) meet the quarters and he also has a fiberglass "S" style front Bumper Panel, along with brand new trim for that and the rear, but I will probably get stock metal front bumper to put back on the car. I have contacted a VW guy here locally that does floor pans for about 65 bucks per side, he said he will help me cut out and put in all new floor pans front, back, and front pedal area (current front and rear pans are good but since I'm going this far why not change them all?) inner and outer rockers, both rear jack points and plates and the quarter panel patch by door jamb for 300.00 to 500.00 bucks, and he does a ton of VW's, so for that price I will probably replace it all and with his help it will speed the process up quite a bit. I have done quarter panels, bedsides, and rockers before, but I will take the help on the floor pans and pedal area as I want to ensure it's done right.

I will check out the www.early911sregistry.org forum as I am sure I will have questions about some about where some, I mean a lot of the stuff goes.

I have never sprayed Sikkens before. I have used PPG and I loved the way the basecoat lays down, it's almost like a factory paint job, but it also has a stiff price tag for the good stuff! The Diamont, is nice because you cannot streak it, its great for paints with lots of metallic (but the local supplier can't mix it right, BASF makes Glasurit, Diamont along with some cheap stuff called Limco the car lots love this stuff.)

GREAT!!!!!

Your metal guy is CHEAP!!!!! Keep HIM busy! What a DEAL!

Don't forget to do all the seam seal and proper metal etching primer stuff, your paint guy will have all that. Use what ever paint you can get that comes with a quality provider, and look ther other way on price. Hopefully you won't be doing this again for a looong time!

I think you got a TON of stuff for a very fair price. For giggles, put a $3K price on the engine and MFI, and then add up the cost of all the rest of the stuff. You did fine.

Bookmark this link: Ultimate MFI Resources Thread for when you begin trying to figure out that MFI system.

Well, the project just got slowed down :( , I have to wait about 60 days to have the pedal pan made, it will cost me about 200.00, not to bad but it will be woth it, I guess I will just work on the rest of the body, I have some left over etching primer, but I will have to get more seam sealer, was the seem sealer factory?

Oh, by the way, thanks David for the Link, I am sure that will come in handy sooner or later.