Handbuilt Porsches

[autobonrun]

Actually two questions.

First, when was the last year Porsche made mostly hand-built cars (not counting the cab top)?

Second, I've heard different opinions on whether hand built cars are truly better built. For example, can a craftsman actually perform better welds than a computerized machine? I'm particularly interested in the cars up through the 993.

[randywebb]

Mostly... I'd say that ended with the 356.

The 356 people castigated the early 911 for low quality when it first came out.

Robots usually do a better job welding than humans - dunno if a human _can_ do better than a robot.

Too bad that guy Zeke left the bbs - he'd know this...

[87coupe]

IIRC, Zeke didn't leave, he is simply posting as "Milt" - his new handle.

[randywebb]

Yeh, I know. We're gonna flush him out tho. He Emailed me that 'Zeke' truly is gone tho. He has a new personna...

Back to the query - the way to really find this out would be to troll thru the 1st. vol. of Ludvigsen...

[Rick964]

I believe the 964 was thelast truly hand built of the 911s, the 993 was done afer Porsche brought in Japanese consultants to help out but was probably still mostly hand built. Boxster, 996 and later are not. Except for the Carrera GT of course.

[Wil Ferch]

None of the Porsches outside of the Gmund, Austria cars and maybe early 356's were "hand-built"...they were mostly "hand assembled". Especially starting with 911's of 1964-65, and going forward. The 911's had some handi-work like lead seam filling of the front door edges and such..but these cars rolled along an assembly line...such as it was...and used body stampings / pressings pretty much like everyone else.

We've discussed this a number of times when people complained of tire rubs....the common answer was "hand built nature of our cars". Rubbish !... The "master" from which all the 911 bodies were made was not done very symmetrically... the LF tire often rubs ( but often "consistently" so..... car to car)...indicating a "minting" error right from the start. The 356 suffered from RR tire clearance...same problem..the car "master" wasn't symmetrical.

Wil

[autobonrun]

Randy I just priced Ludvigsen. Wow, 250 bucks for the three volume set. I'll do some searching but I was hoping someone here would know for certain. Right now we've got the 356 as being the last and the 964 as being the last so I'm still unsure. I thought my SC was but I don't know.

Maybe I better ask for Ludvigsen as a Christmas gift.

Wil, I think your term "hand assembled" may be more appropriate. Maybe I've been using hand built when the real question should be when were they last assembled by hand. But like you say, I've heard many talk about the hand built nature of Porsches.

[Wil Ferch]

Automated or robotic assembly really took off around the time of the 964. There is still some hand-work today, especially in cab top build-up and certain leather interior pieces...also in the engine assembly process.

The assmebly process in Stuttgart , Finland and Leipzig are also a bit different from one-another in terms of level of automation...so this gets a bit confusing beyond semantics issues....

Wil

[ianc]

It really depends on exactly how you define the term 'hand-built'.

ianc

[Wil Ferch]

Originally posted by ianc
It really depends on exactly how you define the term 'hand-built'.

ianc

Indeed.... I submit that for most of us...a guy on an English wheel hand forming body panels....or an Italian metalworker hammering out a block of aluminum so that he ends up as a body panel....or a guy who chisels or lathes a block of steel into a connecting rod...

...all this is hand-built.....

Using hands to assemble pre-fab components is not hand built...unless one purposely defines it this way ...

- Wil

[Rick964]

Good point, I was really thinking along the lines of hand assembled. I was semantically incorrect.

[charleskieffner]

hey mine was built by 'lil german elves with pointy hats and pointy shoes, wearing lederhosen!................dont blow the kids bedtime story talking about ROBOTS!

[Jim Garfield]

This link that Jack O. posted on the 911 history thread pretty much shows it all. Maybe this film is where "hand built" and Porsche became synonymous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBcH9CBBI0M

[autobonrun]

Originally posted by Jim Garfield
This link that Jack O. posted on the 911 history thread pretty much shows it all. Maybe this film is where "hand built" and Porsche became synonymous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBcH9CBBI0M

Excellent link. Thanks. That is what I consider hand built and hand assembled. Those cars look like early model long and short nose 911's.

The factory workers were definitely not using robots but instead welding, sanding, and grinding using hand tools. The question in my mind is when did the factory stop building Porsches like that?

[MOMO3.2]

from autobonrun:

That is what I consider hand built and hand assembled.

The factory workers were definitely not using robots but instead welding, sanding, and grinding using hand tools. The question in my mind is when did the factory stop building Porsches like that?

I am if the same mind here as autobonrun. I can't imagine that anyone is/was under the impression that the men and women building Porsche 911s were using "chisels or lathes to make a block of steel into a connecting rod"--silly.

Mike

[randywebb]

I see guys hand-holding machine tools mainly... Then I see them cleaning stuff up by hand that the inspectors rejected.

-- to me this is way intermediate between hand froming penles over a wooden buck (esp. if you are drunk...) and robotic assembly & welding...

But now that you've stated what you consider hand-built the question is when P AG stopped doing this -- or reduced it so much that they effectively stopped.

I dunno how to find that answer. I would bet there was a gradient reducing the very expensive labor required during the run of the 2.7s, SC's, Carrera's and so forth. Then a big dip after the Toyota team came over and taught them JIT and how to use robots effectively, etc.

[randywebb]

oh yeh - people actually used to chisel conn. rods -- but that was way way back -- I'll bet early steam engines, and other fixed engines, water wheels, etc. Late 1800's would be my bet.

[Wil Ferch]

Rolls Royce con rods...through the 50's and 60's started out as a 8 lb piece.....and 6.5 lbs of metal was ground and chisled off to get the final product...took over two days, I'm told.....

Is it better than a Pink rod or a Pauter rod?....probably not. The real question is the consistency and quality of output. For some types of construction ( soft tops for cabs) a lot of hand work makes sense since there has to be a tactile "feel" that is hard to program into a robotic action. Torquing down all 5 lug nuts via machine with precisely calibrated torque values is probably more consistent than any worker who gets tired or loses motivation.

There's room for both. I agree that the 964 era....aka "Japanese invasion" era is likely the big turning point.

Wil

[randywebb]

ha - a counter-example -- and what country is it from....

[real550A]

My '57 Spyder was "hand built". I get the feeling my '72 911E was "hand assembled". I don't think robots could know how many door shims to use in each instance.