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Jim Torres at Burbank Coachworks phone 818-843-8775. email jimtorres962@sbcglobal.net. Jim will have everything you wil need, rsr hats,centerlock hubs, etc. You will have to remove the ears on the rear trailing arms where the parking brake mounts so you will loose the parking brake, this is so the rear brake hat and rotor will fit.




The end result

Old 08-11-2010, 08:12 PM
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Related to this, is it actually legal to run center lock wheels on the street? I have a funny feeling that in some parts of Europe it is not legal and you will fail the annual inspection if you do have center lock wheels on the car?!?
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Old 08-12-2010, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Kroggers View Post
Related to this, is it actually legal to run center lock wheels on the street? I have a funny feeling that in some parts of Europe it is not legal and you will fail the annual inspection if you do have center lock wheels on the car?!?
I have center locks on my AC Cobra reproduction, when I built it I spent the first four months of it's ownership in Germany and it was legal there, I can not speak about the rest of Europe
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Old 08-12-2010, 05:13 AM
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My 70 MGB and 61 Austin Healey had center lock wheels. Back in the day they were referred to as wire wheels. I think those would be legal? We used hammers to tighten the nuts back then.
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Old 08-12-2010, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Trackrash View Post
My 70 MGB and 61 Austin Healey had center lock wheels. Back in the day they were referred to as wire wheels. I think those would be legal? We used hammers to tighten the nuts back then.
Thanks for the memory, I had a 62, 66, and 67 AH 3000 and loved them. I think I still have the solid copper hammer that came with one of them around somewhere!
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Old 08-12-2010, 09:01 AM
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Hi guys, Bumping this old thread to get a little more input on running center-locks on a street build.

I'm building an RSR 3.0 tribute with vented flares. I'm looking at replica aluminum cast RSR wheels and Centerlocks, I believe originally made by Joe Torres racing. AASE now carries them. I'm running a 77 chassis so regular aluminum banana arms.

My questions:

1. Any first hand knowledge of running center locks good or bad.
2. What's the story on the rear flare differences? I see 13,14 and even 15" vented RSR flares out there.
3. other pitfalls I should be aware of.
4. Brake setups, e-brake source.
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Old 11-21-2019, 08:25 AM
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Hi Duane, saw your post and figured I give you my limited knowledge on the subject.

I had an IROC replica and am in the process of collecting parts to do a RSR 3.0 widebody track-only project. This time around I did a lot more consulting with the shop & experts doing the work and decided against the cast RSR wheels that AASE is selling because of weight, price, repairability issues, need to anodize & limited tire sizes available. I was steered towards BBS E87 16" centerlocks that are still being made, are available in four different center colors, are cheaper, stronger, repairable and can have offsets/widths customized. They were used on 75 RSR's and have a wider tire choice than the 15" cast ones. You will require data on clearances of the brakes you choose since spacers to clear calipers don't exist for centerlocks.

If you're going to spend the roughly $20K+ necessary to run centerlocks, why would you use the original aluminum trailing arms? You should consider at a minimum using steel RSR arms (AASE sells them), or better yet, use 930 arms (AASE also has them) and have the pickup points moved for better geometry. Your stock arms will have accelerated bearing wear due to the wider wheels and would be less desirable when it comes time to sell. (BTW, I assume there is a reason why you would not restore it, because your mods are definitely going to hurt resale unless you are doing a real high-dollar conversion). It is a slippery slope because then you should really do the chassis reinforcements around the shock towers, etc that the real RSR's had. In addition, you'll have a car that looks tough but has an anemic 2.7 or 3.0 motor without spending big bucks to motivate it.

Yes, Jim Torres of Burbank Coachworks made the cast rims & sold them to AASE. He also makes the RSR centerlock hats, hubs, etc., which you can buy from him or AASE. I got them from him along with tie down nuts which are things of beauty. BBS sells the actual wheel nuts. Well, on to your questions:

1. No firsthand knowledge but you will need that RSR ebrake system unless you want to carry chocks around, plus the ebrake system isn't going to be as effective as a stock cars is. You might have to figure out a way to either carry a large breaker bar or high dollar torque multiplier wrench in case of tire trouble unless you have no plans on changing a flat or tightening a wheelnut out on the road.

2. For me, I plan on the largest footprint so was always eying the 15" flares but you should be guided by the experienced body guys that are going to do the grafting on of the panels. In addition, they probably have panel suppliers that they prefer. It is always better to pay more for higher quality panels...that will save more than their cost in labor to make them fit and look right. AASE sells them (don't know their supplier) but there are many manufacturers. You may want to look at the European ones, they are more expensive but much better quality. FVD Brumbacher sells the panels through an outlet here in Florida but they are made in Germany by an OEM supplier to Porsche as just one example.

3. As for pitfalls, street tires other than the Michelin TB5 & TB15 for the 14" wide cast rims are non-existent (I think). The Michelins are supposed to not be mounted on rims wider than 13" but I have seen several on the cast rims you're interested in, so it must not be that big of a deal. If you want to run grooved slicks, that is an option but race tires don't have the same durability over all the rocks, bumps, etc. you find on roads, so you will probably have a lot of punctures. PS: The slicks and the Michelins are expensive! (over $2k a set)

4. Brakes seem to be limited to either 930 calipers, 2.8 RSR replicas & 3.0 RSR endurance replicas. Your stock calipers won't work in this application (maybe an adaptor?), the 930's are available through AASE, the 2.8 RSR calipers can be gotten through Zuffenhaus and the 3.0 RSR endurance calipers are made by EB Motorsport in England but are available here thru Rothsport. Most 3.0 RSR's I have seen in AJ Serano's excellent Pbase site have a mixture of the 3.0 RSR endurance calipers up front & the 2.8 RSR's in the rear, and a couple having the endurance calipers front & back. Bill Verburg is the resident brake guru here and may have other options for under 15" wheels with centerlock hubs.

Once you add up the cost of running centerlocks and the drawbacks, it may not be worth the cool factor. John James Racing has other options with Penta Racing Wheels that have a centerlock mechanism bolted to the traditional 5 bolt pattern and then the wheel is attached to that. Somebody else makes that too...it might be Zuffenhaus, but I'm not positive since I was never interested in that.

As an example with your wheel choice: rims- $7700; hats/hubs-$7500; tires- $2000; wheel nuts- $600; brakes- $5000 to $10000; brake rotors- $1000. That puts you in the $23-28k territory without any money spent on bodywork, suspension, motor or chassis mods...not for the faint of heart! Good luck on your project!
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Last edited by mpeastend; 11-23-2019 at 02:55 AM..
Old 11-23-2019, 02:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpeastend View Post
Hi Duane, saw your post and figured I give you my limited knowledge on the subject.
Your response is excellent. Much appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpeastend View Post
I had an IROC replica and am in the process of collecting parts to do a RSR 3.0 widebody track-only project. This time around I did a lot more consulting with the shop & experts doing the work and decided against the cast RSR wheels that AASE is selling because of weight, price, repairability issues, need to anodize & limited tire sizes available. I was steered towards BBS E87 16" centerlocks that are still being made, are available in four different center colors, are cheaper, stronger, repairable and can have offsets/widths customized. They were used on 75 RSR's and have a wider tire choice than the 15" cast ones. You will require data on clearances of the brakes you choose since spacers to clear calipers don't exist for centerlocks.
What's the weight of the cast RSR wheels from AASE? I briefly looked at the BBS 16" and I saw a lot of old race wheels in 16" but I couldn't seem to find tires. Seems like the ultra wide tires are now limited to 15" What tires are you running?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpeastend View Post

If you're going to spend the roughly $20K+ necessary to run centerlocks, why would you use the original aluminum trailing arms? You should consider at a minimum using steel RSR arms (AASE sells them), or better yet, use 930 arms (AASE also has them) and have the pickup points moved for better geometry. Your stock arms will have accelerated bearing wear due to the wider wheels and would be less desirable when it comes time to sell. (BTW, I assume there is a reason why you would not restore it, because your mods are definitely going to hurt resale unless you are doing a real high-dollar conversion). It is a slippery slope because then you should really do the chassis reinforcements around the shock towers, etc that the real RSR's had. In addition, you'll have a car that looks tough but has an anemic 2.7 or 3.0 motor without spending big bucks to motivate it.
I considered the original Aluminum trailing arms because I thought I read somewhere that they actually used original trailing arms. I must have been mistaken.

The reason I'm not restoring it is because 1. I don't care about resell. 2. It's a low desirability model year (77) and it has terrible lap weld on turbo flares. I've already stripped it to the tub and sold the 2.7

I do plan to do the chassis reinforcements. As for the power plant, original RSR 3.0 had the RSR 3.0 motor in them. MFI and about 330 hp right? I'm building a street 3.4 off a carrera block. Should be less than the original RSR motor in output, but not a race motor either. This isn't a RSR clone, it's more like a RSR stylized street beast.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mpeastend View Post
Yes, Jim Torres of Burbank Coachworks made the cast rims & sold them to AASE. He also makes the RSR centerlock hats, hubs, etc., which you can buy from him or AASE. I got them from him along with tie down nuts which are things of beauty. BBS sells the actual wheel nuts. Well, on to your questions:

1. No firsthand knowledge but you will need that RSR ebrake system unless you want to carry chocks around, plus the ebrake system isn't going to be as effective as a stock cars is. You might have to figure out a way to either carry a large breaker bar or high dollar torque multiplier wrench in case of tire trouble unless you have no plans on changing a flat or tightening a wheelnut out on the road.
I see the RSR brake kit that EB motorsports sells. What about 930 brakes? Can they be run with the centerlocks and an RSR style E-brake setup?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mpeastend View Post
2. For me, I plan on the largest footprint so was always eying the 15" flares but you should be guided by the experienced body guys that are going to do the grafting on of the panels. In addition, they probably have panel suppliers that they prefer. It is always better to pay more for higher quality panels...that will save more than their cost in labor to make them fit and look right. AASE sells them (don't know their supplier) but there are many manufacturers. You may want to look at the European ones, they are more expensive but much better quality. FVD Brumbacher sells the panels through an outlet here in Florida but they are made in Germany by an OEM supplier to Porsche as just one example.
Yes I'm seeing a GREAT difference in body panel pricing! I'm leaning toward EB motorsports RSR body panels. They have an excellent reputation. I spoke with Getty, they don't make them anymore sadly. There are a few other vendors stateside as well that vary greatly in price / and or quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpeastend View Post
3. As for pitfalls, street tires other than the Michelin TB5 & TB15 for the 14" wide cast rims are non-existent (I think). The Michelins are supposed to not be mounted on rims wider than 13" but I have seen several on the cast rims you're interested in, so it must not be that big of a deal. If you want to run grooved slicks, that is an option but race tires don't have the same durability over all the rocks, bumps, etc. you find on roads, so you will probably have a lot of punctures. PS: The slicks and the Michelins are expensive! (over $2k a set)
Originally I was doing an IROC tribute, but when I found the horrible lap weld job, I decided on the RSR tribute. And now I really like the look as there seem to be MANY IROC clones/tributes and very few RSR cars (probably because of the insane build cost! to do it "right") Anyway, my tire and wheel choice for the IROC was always going to be 9 & 11 X 15" with the TB15 tires. Such a great period correct look.

I run streetable track Pirellis on my other 911. So I'm sort of already in the high maintenance wheel / tire territory. If I break down, it's a tow. Not a tire change on the side of a highway. I don't carry a spare anyway. I plan to do the plastic tank so no room for a spare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpeastend View Post
4. Brakes seem to be limited to either 930 calipers, 2.8 RSR replicas & 3.0 RSR endurance replicas. Your stock calipers won't work in this application (maybe an adaptor?), the 930's are available through AASE, the 2.8 RSR calipers can be gotten through Zuffenhaus and the 3.0 RSR endurance calipers are made by EB Motorsport in England but are available here thru Rothsport. Most 3.0 RSR's I have seen in AJ Serano's excellent Pbase site have a mixture of the 3.0 RSR endurance calipers up front & the 2.8 RSR's in the rear, and a couple having the endurance calipers front & back. Bill Verburg is the resident brake guru here and may have other options for under 15" wheels with centerlock hubs.
Yes, I've been researching brake calipers. It's not an unlimited $ build. Far from it. But Still, I have time and other resources that I can leverage to source the really cool parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpeastend View Post
Once you add up the cost of running centerlocks and the drawbacks, it may not be worth the cool factor. John James Racing has other options with Penta Racing Wheels that have a centerlock mechanism bolted to the traditional 5 bolt pattern and then the wheel is attached to that. Somebody else makes that too...it might be Zuffenhaus, but I'm not positive since I was never interested in that.
The bolt on centerlocks are ...not my thing. I would have to go legit 100% centerlocks if I went that route.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mpeastend View Post
As an example with your wheel choice: rims- $7700; hats/hubs-$7500; tires- $2000; wheel nuts- $600; brakes- $5000 to $10000; brake rotors- $1000. That puts you in the $23-28k territory without any money spent on bodywork, suspension, motor or chassis mods...not for the faint of heart! Good luck on your project!
Yes, these are precisely the numbers that keep most people away from running centerlocks. I feel like there's a shed of these things that have been taken off old race cars after everyone moved on from the air cooled 911's in early IMSA racing. If you are that guy, PM me. My dad is that guy for old hot rod parts. Maybe I could trade someone. I have all sorts of good hot rod parts in the phx area. 30s-60s hot rod racing stuff for Fords etc.

We've got 20 years left on this hobby. Surely someone can part with some original centerlocks to get them back out in public instead of rusting away in a container.

I guess I'm an idealist.

Anyway, thank you again for your candid response. Sounds like your build is going to be really cool. You doing a real RSR style 3.0 with MFI and all the goodies?
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Old 11-23-2019, 08:07 AM
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No problem Duane, hope any of it helps. I was rereading what I wrote & hope it didn't come off as negative or trying to dissuade you from your project. I was trying to convey that you're going to spend big money and should do it logically so that you can recoup most of your investment when time comes to sell, otherwise you'll be parting out your car.

As to your questions:
AJ Serrano has the weights for the repros at 25 lbs for fronts & 27 lbs for the rears. He also listed the real magnesium weights at 16.5 lbs for the fronts & 20 lbs for the rears. AASE has the weights on their site in kilograms but somebody must have made a mistake because the cast aluminum weights are really close to the real forged magnesium rim weights and it's an obvious error: AASE- fronts 8.55 kg (18.84 lbs) & rears 9.7 kg (21.38 lbs). Twenty five & twenty seven pounds aren't overly heavy (RUF rims probably weigh more) but BBS rims are definitely lighter & will be stronger, plus can be repaired. You should stay away from old race wheels...you can buy brand new E87 rims from BBS for a little less than $5K, why take a chance on bent, cracked or leaking old wheels? There seem to be more tire choices for 16" rims in the wider-than-road tires: Avon historic slicks makes three sizes for the rears- 12.5/23.5 16; 13.5/25 16 & 14/27 16. Goodyear has a 27.0x14 16 in their vintage sportscar slicks category. Hoosier has 12.5/25.5 16 & 25.5/14 16 slicks for the rims. The last hoosier is the one I'm using. If you go into bias slicks (all the slicks I listed are radials) I think you have more 15" choices, especially for some really wide tires, but I know of no one running bias plys & I'm going with the recommendations of my race shop.

930 brakes can be run with the centerlock setup but they don't have the flat part machined in the bridges with the four tapped holes to attach the racing e-brake system. Don't know if they can be adapted...probably...but that would be a question for Bill Verburg.

As far as the bodywork panels...that should be your shop's preference (hopefully they've done an RSR or two to know what manufacturer requires the least work). Didn't know Getty stopped making them. Well there is GT racing, Shaw, TRE, AIR (are they still in business?) and it seems this place in Germany makes some really good quality ones: f-s-h.com. FSH may be the manufacturer that supplies FVD Brumbacher, hard to tell without asking.

Duane, you should leave the original hubs, etc. for the museums or real RSR's that need the parts for provenance...they are more trouble than they are worth. They will be expensive as hell and those old parts made of magnesium may have had a hard life with impacts, cracks, etc. You are better off with Torres' new aluminum & steel hubs, much safer. Lots of stories of old magnesium rims cracking, etc....they don't age well. I had a set of fuchs magnesium centers cut out and welded into wider 17" barrels by Lindsey for my IROC...really nice job & works of art but one of the rears had 3 out of the five petals crack while on track. I never knew what kind of life those rims had before I bought them to use in my project.

My build is still humming along. Been sidetracked a little with my mother getting ill but getting closer. You can see my original IROC build here: https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/290036-my-74-rs-iroc-project.html I'm using most of the high-dollar parts from that car on my RSR. Original plan was to turn the IROC into a full blown RSR but I wound up totaling it at Watkins Glen. My theme for the IROC (and the RSR) car was to improve upon the real one wherever possible..that means full coilovers, ERP suspension components, etc. My engine & tranny are built already...a 3.8L 993 high compression motor that needs 110 octane gas and a short G50 5 spd. Looking to stick all these, and many more components into my new donor car.

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Last edited by mpeastend; 11-25-2019 at 07:22 AM..
Old 11-24-2019, 02:24 AM
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