Grand Am competition adjustments

[rfuerst911sc]

I was on the Speed TV website and under the Grand Am section I see they are adding 75lbs. to the Porsche powered prototypes and limiting the maximum revs to 9000 and removing a minimum of 25lbs. for V8 powered prototypes. What do you think?

[Doug&Julie]

I think they need to run more races before making these adjustments. But I'm not surprised....

[RaceProEngineer]

Well, I suppose I shall open "the hornets' nest" by stating our opinion:

Generally, we believe a sanctioning body needs to start with a BASE set of performance (and safety, of course) guidelines for a particular class of racing, like motor displacement, minimum weight, maximum width, length, and height (for aero devices); and then stay out of it for awhile, and see what develops.

Especially at the upper levels of racing, the very idea that a particular car or team or chassis or motor, operating WITHIN THE RULES OF THE CLASS, should be penalised for superior performance is Kindergarden-style, at best. Most of you remember Kindergarden, where everyone was deliberately treated fairly, and even the lousy hitters got their chances at bat, and then we all had a snack and took a nap.

All too well, we know the argument that the sort of "equalization" you describe above makes for closer (and better) racing. Closer . . . perhaps? It also makes for SLOWER racing, where the cars or teams which have maximized their use of the BASE rules, are penalized for their resourcefulness. It creates a "dumbing down" of the entire field, and does not reward engineering, preparation, or superior driving.

Again our opinion: the nature of racing is to use one's resources to go faster than the next competitor. We do not want everyone to be a winner - we want the best to excel, and the rest to strive to do the same! This is RACING, not sandbox . . .

If you recall, when these so-called "prototypes" started life, they were so emasculated that many of the better GT cars made them look like they were standing still on the track. Now that they are finally developing into something which is no longer as embarassing to watch, it is a shame to see the "dumbing down" continue.

There is Spec Racer Ford, there is Spec Miata, and now there is Grand Am. Equality for ALL!

Ed LoPresti

[Jim Garfield]

Typical Nascar BS. It's all about the "show" and not the race. This kind of rules manipulation stifles creativity and keeps innovative people like Norbert Singer spinning their wheels while mediocrity wins the race.

I say publish the rules before the season begins and stick with them. If some clever team finds some advantage by a careful reading of the rules, good for them.....it is after all supposed to be a contest.

[jackb911]

Don't forget that Grand Am is a NASCAR series. NASCAR is the racing equivalent of WWF wrestling. It's all about entertainment, not real racing.
______________________
Jack

'96 993

[Jim Garfield]

Jack you read my mind.

[rfuerst911sc]

This is why I'm a ALMS fan and just a viewer of Grand Am, this rule change does not surprise me from a sister division of NASCRAP.

[mattr_914]

Originally posted by jackb911
Don't forget that Grand Am is a NASCAR series. NASCAR is the racing equivalent of WWF wrestling. It's all about entertainment, not real racing.
______________________
Jack

'96 993

A 12 hour race isnt the best way to get ratings.

And did you watch Homestead? There was some really good racing this past weekend. Maybe I'm just biased...

[Jim Garfield]

Originally posted by mattr_914


A 12 hour race isnt the best way to get ratings.

Unfortunately you're right. It has become about the ratings and not the race.

[sammyg2]

Sounds like grand Am is run by a bunch of wimps who will do anything to keep pontiac and lexus happy.
If I was in charge of porsche's advertising department I would pull every single add from the races.
The fools don't realize that different race tracks benefit different cars. Sebring was better for high revving high HP engines like the porsches while a shorter track (like the next one they are racing on) will benefit a higher torque-lower rpm engine like the V8s.
F-em. They just lost another fan.
Grand am sux, ALMS is 100 times better.

[450knotOffice]

I've got to agree Sam. Jeez.

[lateapex911]

Anybody remember IMSA in the GTP days? Cool stuff, no?

Those Nissans were awesome. Who else raced against them? A few..Jaguar?
Then Toyota came and set records everywhere. Who raced against them? Not many. Most gave up and went home. Too much money, no chance of winning ..they were outspent, and there were too few watching for the investment.

It became a one car show, and it vanished.

ALMS? Hmmmm....theres Audi. And Dyson...and???

Very expensive, limited audience= tough sell to sponsors.

Sanctioning bodies have a tough balancing act. Allow racing and the better teams to rise to the top on one hand, but maintain economy and an audience on the other.

[DavidPorter]

But hey, didn't they change the rules over the winter to favor the Porsche-powered cars and let them compete better with the V8s? Let them drop the transmission 4", for instance, to lower the CG. They're probably thinking they overshot the mark and need a correction. Not that I don't enjoy seeing the Porsches up front, but this is NASCAR after all.

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally posted by lateapex911
Anybody remember IMSA in the GTP days? Cool stuff, no?

Those Nissans were awesome. Who else raced against them? A few..Jaguar?
Then Toyota came and set records everywhere. Who raced against them? Not many. Most gave up and went home. Too much money, no chance of winning ..they were outspent, and there were too few watching for the investment.

It became a one car show, and it vanished.

ALMS? Hmmmm....theres Audi. And Dyson...and???

Very expensive, limited audience= tough sell to sponsors.

Sanctioning bodies have a tough balancing act. Allow racing and the better teams to rise to the top on one hand, but maintain economy and an audience on the other.

I do, I was there in the midst of it.

IMSA had a tough job trying to come up with a sliding scale to help create parity with all of the different engine combinations, from 4-cylinder turbos to normally aspirated V12's. Porsche's 962 was already long in the tooth & when the Nissans first gained prominence the top Porsche teams were still competing (Holbert, Dyson & Bayside), the TWR Jags were always a threat, Gurney/TRD's Eagle were slowly finding their way, the Lola/Corvette GTP was a force in qualifying at least and the Spice Chevy/Pontiac/insert V8 here were tough to beat on a street circuit.

I agree that it may be a little early to anoint Porsche as the Grand-Am DP champion and thus begin to penalize them after a couple of strong showings, but DP Racing is pretty darn good and if that is what is required than so be it with the understanding that if the Porsche teams become mid-pack runners again there will be further adjustments made to make them more competitive. Alot of chassis & engine manufacturers (the DP V8's are heavily restricted btw) breeds for the long-term success of any race series. The same happens in the DTM, win on Sunday and get penalized on Monday. Think of it as a salary cap in a professional sport where the highest budget team doesn't necessarily win.

While the ALMS LMP & LMP2 cars are more technically advanced and quicker, watching a pair of Audi & Dyson cars essentially make up the entire LMP field and Porsche's RS Spyder and Clint Field's LMP2 having the only chance of winning in LMP2 doesn't make for great spectating, on tv or at the track. Until recently, what has the factory Corvette in GT1 raced against? the Oreca Vipers have been gone for years, and until this year with the Aston Martin DB9's the only cars competing were a couple of privateer Ferrari's and Saleen S7R's. Please...

Grand-Am is at the point now where they have enough DP cars to run a race on their own (like Long Beach in a couple of weeks) and don't have to rely on the GT cars anymore to fill out the field. ALMS has no choice but to field 4 classes of cars together...

I'm not involved in high-level racing any longer and really don't care what happens to either series, but as a fan I would much rather watch a full field of cars racing nose to tail with the winner in doubt.

The biggest shame is putting open wheel/sports cars on a temporary street course and calling that racing, but that's another topic.

Ralph

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Carrera3.5L
I do, I was there in the midst of it.

. ALMS has no choice but to field 4 classes of cars together...



The biggest shame is putting open wheel/sports cars on a temporary street course and calling that racing, but that's another topic.

Ralph

Good points! And I will probably go see the ALMS show if it doesn't conflict with my own racing, but I will realize that I am a pretty milited audience!

So you were there in the heyday? (sp?) What was your involvement?

Those were wild and great times, up to the Nissan dominance. With GTO and GTU, there were some cool cars, and i remember some good racing. It's too bad TV wasn't as involved then as now, because I think that with a better management and TV, roadracing today might be a lot different.

That said, when all series any series is allowed to spiral like that, the specticle and public interest has to be huge or it will collapse.

My casual understanding is that ALMS will have very thin fields this year, and the R10 won't be making many appearances.

But, just like a rotary engine, it's at it's best right before it blows. Has ALMS blown?

[mattr_914]

Originally posted by Jim Garfield
Unfortunately you're right. It has become about the ratings and not the race.

What I'm saying is they have 12 hour races still and the series is built on endurance races. They dont race endurance for ratings because they're difficult to market. Its still about the racing.

Yes, there's lots of advertising. There are many regional racers and fewer big battles between the big teams, but I still like turning on a Grand Am race.

Why are you trying to compare Grand Am to ALMS? They are totally different series. One isnt better then the other, I think. Just (much) different.

[cegerer]

I'd rather watch an innovative car like the Audi TDI R10 circle the track by itself, than a full field of 'equalized' Daytona Prototypes rubbin' fenders NASCRAP-style.

".... and even the lousy hitters got their chances at bat, and then we all had a snack and took a nap. "

Indeed!

[jluetjen]

Originally posted by DavidPorter
But hey, didn't they change the rules over the winter to favor the Porsche-powered cars and let them compete better with the V8s? Let them drop the transmission 4", for instance, to lower the CG. They're probably thinking they overshot the mark and need a correction. Not that I don't enjoy seeing the Porsches up front, but this is NASCAR after all.

The big problem with this approach is that it replaces racing with politics because the "adjustments" are made based on a personal decision at arbitrary times. I don't have problems with adjustments, but I'd rather they were just "lead trophies" like in SpeedGT. And if Bill Auberlon in a BMW can repeatedly wipe the field with 250 lbs of trophies in the car -- good for him! Then make the adjustment in the off-season. But this whole idea of arbitrarily giving out adjustments is BS.

[Doug&Julie]

Originally posted by jluetjen
....But this whole idea of arbitrarily giving out adjustments in BS.

That's my problem too. That's why I said let them run a little longer...Porsche may not be so "dominant" in the future.

Does anyone think that it may have as much to do with Alex Job racing's high quality team more so than the Porsche / Crawford chassis? ..not to mention the Porsche factory "ringers" in the driving seat. Put all of that together and of course you're going to have a very fast car!

[Tooth911]

Iam not a fan of this either but Iam so thrilled to see porsche back in a big way. Also Iam curious on the general specs of porsche motor used in DP anyone?