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Brian,

I agree most manuals assume too much prior knowledge. I think one of the real benefits of this Forum is we can get into excruciating detail of the procedures. Far more than most manuals. What are your manuals?

Dealing with used parts there probably isn’t an exact right procedure for every situation. Arguing these points will help define the varying circumstances and the possible procedures.

Another benefit from this exercise is Jim may become the 915 expert tech in the area. Hopefully he can make some money (to pay for the tools) and everyone benefits.

Jim, I recommend you start yourself a 915 manual and print everything you can find. There is a LOT on Pelican. Include the Factory WSM, Bentley and other. Keep everything on disc also.

Best,
Grady
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:37 PM
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I have what sounds like a similar problem, I have been driving it for at least a couple of 1000 miles. Mine is really only noticiable in 5th and not when I let off the gas.

The tranny was rebuilt and got louder when I installed the wevo shifter because there is a little bit more side load, all the slop is gone. The shifter is great however, no complaints.

I have a 7:31 with posi in a alum cased 915., replaced all the bushings and use SWEPCO.

I have heard that it could be pitting to the 5th gears, makes sense cuse it really jumps out at ya as soon as I drop it in 5th. It hasn't gotten any louder over time.

I hope this helps.
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Old 04-06-2006, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Tell me about “the Fairbanks pinion measurement tool.” Is there an internet link or can I talk to Gary? If this is an inexpensive suitable substitute for the NLA P258 and VW385 then great!


Grady,

I sent you a private message via email, but will answer here some of the questions you asked, not only for you, but for others that might be interested.

The Gary Fairbanks tool was engineered and built by him 7 or 8 years ago. See this thread for photos:
P258a Mandrel - differential tool; can it be recreated?

He built 20 sets, and sold all but one which he kept for his shop. I talked with him yesterday, and he said he would not be building any more. For someone with the right machine tools, fabricating a similar tool should not be a major problem. Needed would be a lathe and a vertical mill, and a used differential carrier casting. There is a fitting which holds the Dial Indicator that could have either been a bought piece or a special machining. This fitting is threaded into a hole which must be machined into the carrier. Then there's the knurled insert for rotating it when mounted in the transmission housing. I could provide some detailed photos if anyone might be interested in fabricating something similar. I would assume this is Gary's design, and he should receive credit for having designed this tool.

I'm not sure it could be called an inexpensive solution unless someone who has the machine tools would want to take it on and not charge much for the labor .
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Old 04-09-2006, 11:24 AM
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A good condition 8:31 R&P from the mid-70's has been located. It might ship on Monday if I can expidite payment. I put the tranny on the stand today and will pull the faulty R&P. How far down do you want me to strip this thing Jim?

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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 04-09-2006, 06:35 PM
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Brian,

For starters, I thought we might measure the pinion setting on that trans before proceeding. So pulling the diff carrier and supplying the side plate, along with the trans of course, would give us enough to 1) get used to the measuring tool, and 2) determine how far off if any, the pinion might be according to the numbers on the R&P.

On second thought, since this is supposed to be a learning experience, maybe keeping the carrier in place and coming up with the setup to measure the backlash would be in order to see what you actually have before tearing it down. As I understand the manuals, the pinion shaft has to be held in place while doing this, and it appears the end piece needs to come off to lock the pinion shaft down. The dial indicator setup is going to have to be put together at some point anyway, so it might as well be now when something might be learned about the current backlash.

Inputs, anyone, before we start? Grady?
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Old 04-09-2006, 07:34 PM
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Old 04-09-2006, 07:50 PM
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Does anyone know what I can use to block off the cooler lines while we are fiddling with this? I'd like to leave the cooler off until we are confident it is fixed. Makes it a LOT easier to install/remove.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 04-10-2006, 05:05 AM
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Jim,

You are right on. The sequence I prefer is to:

Measure the pinion position:

Remove the differential and remove the O-ring from the side cover and the axle flange seals. Don’t let the tapered roller bearings come off. Some are a slip fit. You don’t want to mix up either the bearings or the spacers S1 & S2, worse yet be holding the bearing while the differential and ring gear drop to the concrete floor. With the stand, it is easiest to get the differential assembly in and out if rotated about 45° angle.

Inspect the shift rod at the coupler set screw dimple far any damage. File off any burrs. If the shaft is damaged it can further damage the seal and bearings when you remove the nose piece.

Make sure the transmission is in neutral.

Remove the nose piece but don’t undo farther. Don’t loose the reverse pin. Note the small end is toward the switch.

Install P258 with four nuts on the differential side cover. Tighten the nuts where there is 0.15 mm gap between the cover and the differential housing. Measurement is adjacent to the four nuts. If you can’t get the tool to have some preload, add shim thickness under the bearings. You do not need the specified preload for R&P setup but it needs to be in that range.

With the P258 dial indicator set, use your thumbs to push on the nut end of the pinion shaft. Record that number.

With a pry bar lightly pry between the intermediate casting and 5th gear. It is easy to tell the difference between end play and when you are prying too much. Record that number and subtract from the 1st number. This is the pinion end play. It should be zero but in practice there is some. If you see more than about 0.10 mm, something is wrong with the pinion 4-point ball bearing or its support.

Measure the position of the pinion after having pried the 5th gear and released it. Repeat several times and you will see the repeatability.

Next is the backlash:

Porsche specifies it at a marked tooth. It is easiest to position the pinion with that tooth facing the side cover opening. Use P259a to hold the pinion in position.

Use a paint stick and mark the back side of the ring gear and differential housing as it is difficult to see the marks on the ring gear when installed.

Install the side cover with all the nuts, torque to spec (15.9 -18.1 ft-lbs or 22 – 25 NM). You are going to need to reinstall the oil cooler and cast clutch brackets or make spacers (preferable).

Install the P357 washer on the axle flange and set in place in the differential.

Assemble your version of P259, dial indicator and P259b. using a M10 bolt of appropriate (110 mm) length. Torque to spec (18.8 – 21.7 ft-lbs or 26 – 30 NM). When you tighten this bolt with the P357 washer in place, it locks up the large differential pinion (spider) gear.

Jim, when you make your version of P259, it doesn’t have to contact the CV surface of the axle flange.

Check the backlash moving the axle flange not the tool. In this case, check the backlash pressing on the nut end of the pinion and using the pry bar. This will give another indication is there is a bearing or support issue.

In cases where I suspect possible R&P or differential housing damage, I check the backlash every 1/6 turn of the pinion all the way around the ring gear. In Brian’s case I wouldn’t be surprised to find a deformed differential housing resulting in widely varying backlash around the ring gear.

On to differential bearing preload:

Here you have to remove all the gears from the transmission. Record the thickness of the pinion shims.

Now is the time for some serious investigation. The critical issue is the condition of the main differential casting, particularly where the pinion bearings are supported.

Reinstall the differential with the bearings lubricated with standard gear oil – no “slick” lubricants. Torque all the side cover nuts to spec.

Install the P357 washer on an axle flange and tighten the stretch bolt to spec.

A commercial indicating torque wrench that is screwdriver-like works well.

It is the dynamic rotating torque you want to measure, not the static “break-away” torque. Again, this would be a good place to disassemble and reassemble your set-up to see your consistency.


Pinion to ring contact pattern:

This is more “art” than measurement but is very useful. I haven’t had to do this very much so others may have better procedures.

There are two distinctly different conditions; accelerating and trailing throttle. The patterns should be approximately the same but much more wear occurs on the accelerating side.

Before you start, carefully inspect the clean contact surfaces for any pits or discoloration. Also inspect the edges of the gears for sharpness – good gears have a slight bevel at the edges. In Brian’s case you may find two distinctly different overlapping patterns. If so, this probably corresponds to before and after the incident or before and after the repair or all three. I’ll let others chime in on inspecting the pattern techniques.

This set of instructions needs much more refinement and include images.
I’ll keep referring to the tools by their Factory designation even though you are using tools “of local manufacture” as Porsche calls them.

Brian & Jim, get rid of that grinder near the trans and clean everything. One little bit of carbide can do a lot of damage. Cleanliness is next to Godliness.

Brian, you have posted some great images. When you take these images have the gears oil free. Brake clean or lacquer thinner and compressed air work well, WD-40 afterwards always. Experiment with lighting. Clearly you have a high-res camera, try editing the image to show just the detail and then reduce the res for posting. There is a lot that others and I can tell from good images. Your camera is our eyes. I know that is a lot of effort but worth it. You get some of the best advice in the world and there is a forever Pelican archived set of instructions, better than anything available from Porsche or others.

Best,
Grady
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Old 04-11-2006, 08:38 AM
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Priceless Grady, priceless!
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Old 04-11-2006, 08:48 AM
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I received the replacement R&P today (thanks Bill!)

The ring gear has a wear pattern on the BACK side on the gears - just as mine is doing. What causes this? It seems logical that torque would push the pinion into the ring forcing wear during acceleration, not deceleration.

The bench grinder sits on the tool table. It is not used there. I'll move it anyway, can't be too careful.

Jim - I'll be calling you soon to set up a time when I can bring all this over.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 04-11-2006, 12:51 PM
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Great thread due to awesome advice and collaboration via the internet!

Good luck!

Doug
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Old 04-11-2006, 01:34 PM
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Grady,

Thanks for the detailed post. I will copy it and have it handy for reference along with the Factory manuals.
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Old 04-11-2006, 02:26 PM
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If the 915 has a ZF limited slip carrier, there will always be a lot of meshing sounds, at least mine does's and did after a complete overhaul.
Old 04-11-2006, 03:51 PM
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I wish I could blame the noise on a LSD. If one of those were installed I my not have gotten into this mess in the first place.

Here is a picture of the R&P received today. Notice the heavy wear pattern on the back side of the ring gear. The front side looks to be normal for a 30 year old part. The pinion gear also looks to be in good shape for its age.

I will have to post a picture of the R&P that is coming out of the tranny pictured above - it is toast. These "new" parts are much better than the ones they will replace in the tranny pictured, but much more worn than the one presently in my car. That fact makes me feel more comfortable that we will be able to restore the quiet operation it once had.

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Old 04-11-2006, 06:06 PM
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Grady,
Thanks for the concise set-up sequence. It is going in my manual. Your statement about measuring the pinion end-play makes me realize that a simplified tool that measures one position is not ideal for this. A dial indicator is needed similar to the P258 tool or Gary Fairbank's tool described in Jim's post above.
Lyn
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Old 04-11-2006, 06:50 PM
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OK, here starts the questions for Grady........

I have spent several hours over the last couple of days doing a lot of reading and comparing in and between the Porsche manuals. And Brian dropped off his 915 (which is still together while I have been figuring out various ways to replicate the factory measurement tools). I have been recording names and pictures references for the various factory tools used for the R&P adjustments, from both the earlier 915 manuals (Vol IV from the '72 - '83 books), and the later one (Vol II from the Carrera series).

I think I have a pretty good grasp of the theory, but the words and photos leave a little to be desired for someone trying to set this up without the factory tools. Brian says he would like to get some ideas on the R&P adjustment numbers with out a total teardown, so I am trying to figure out if anything meaningful can be gotten from a backlash measurement without removing the nosepiece in order to hold the pinion gear shaft immobile.

I have put together a real simple setup, mimicking the factory set up for backlash meaurement. Now, I know that without holding the pinion shaft, this method wouldn't be what one would use with a "store-bought rebuild". But I'm wondering if the fact that I have measured almost twice the upper limit for bscklash, 0.18 mm, might be a indicator of the source of Brian's R&P whine. My measurements indicated 0.30 mm.

Here is what I did to lock the pinion side gear in the differential cluster to the differential carrier: There is a thick washer that sits on the diff shaft, with the 110 mm M10 bolt through the center of the washer, threaded into the side pinion. On top of the washer is a spacer which allows pulling up the side pinion to lock against the diff carrier. (Q1: is this procedure actually locking the carrier to the internal pinion?) Then the bolt secures a professional looking arm which is used with the dial indicator to read backlash. The arm approximates the length of the factory tool.



(I have another configuration I came up with, using the CV flange, which may be a little easier to improvise. Photo later.)

I can feel a definite stop when rotating the carrier in either direction with the M10 bolt, which is repeatable in both directions, and results in a 0.3 mm reading. Judging by feel, I don't think the pinion shaft is being moved at all. I have tried to measure some pre-load movement, but the carrier won't move at all in that direction.

Q2: Do you think there are any meaningful conclusions to be drawn from this test? BTW, I still have several other questions which I will put in a follow-on post.
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Old 04-16-2006, 03:04 PM
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Jim,

I wouldn’t hesitate to pull any of the covers (nose piece, shift pivot, oil pump or differential side cover. Removal of any of these only necessitates an inexpensive paper gasket or O-ring (that you can buy individually in quantity) and doesn’t disturb any setting. You also get to look at things.

It is possible you are feeling backlash form some other component. The gear pump drive is a possibility.

Good tool.
Q1; You can tell if it has the differential locked by making a similar lock for the other axle flanges (no measuring feature) and use the other side to rotate the assembly. If there is any rotational movement side-to-side then the differential isn’t locked.

The backlash is specified with a marked pinion tooth between two marked ring teeth. The specified backlash is etched on the side of the ring gear. A useful initial test you can do right now is see how the backlash varies over several 360° rotations of the ring gear (say 15 measurements per 360° rotation.) You won’t be able to compare the numbers to a specification. You are looking for a deformed differential housing or similar so just a difference around the ring might tell you something.

Q2; Yes. If 15 measurements around the ring were:
0.30 mm
0.35 mm
0.37 mm
0.42 mm
0.45 mm
0.43 mm
0.39 mm
0.36 mm
0.31 mm
0.28 mm
0.22 mm
0.19 mm
0.16 mm
0.20 mm
0.25 mm
You would be pretty certain something was wrong and warrant further investigation.

If you repeat the measurement going backwards to the original starting point, you get to determine your repeatability. If you go forward each tooth engagement is different from the first 360°.

Having the tooth faces free of gear oil helps with an accurate measurement. (brake clean, compressed air, WD-40 and wipe with a lint-free cotton cloth)

You can’t get any feel for amount of pre-load without removing the pinion. Now if you could feel any axial movement of the differential assembly - that would be a big deal.


Good stuff.

Best,
Grady
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Old 04-16-2006, 04:32 PM
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Grady,

After conferring with Brian on Mondy, I'm guessing that he will want to proceed with removal and inspection of the differential with the goal of familiarization and inspection of the parts. Before disassembly, however, I will do the 360 deg rotation and measurements, just to see what it shows.

Without removing the pinion shaft to determine preload, what would be wrong with doing the following: While the diff is out, record and mark with a marking pen, the spacers and shims that are mounted for each side taper bearing. then mix and match them so that the side for the ring gear gets more space than it had, assuring that when the diff goes back in temporarily, the ring gear is sure not to contact the pinion, and recheck the pre-load? Best I can see, this shouldn't affect the pre-load. If this is doable, it would seem to avoid removal of the gear sets from the transmission just to verify the pre-load setting. Then the spacers and shims could be returned to their original location. Or am I missing something?

Here is a photo of the assembly for locking the differential which I used.

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Old 04-16-2006, 07:42 PM
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Jim,

You haven’t checked the pre-load yet. You have only checked backlash at some random point.

Pre-load is measured dynamically by rotating the differential assembly by hand with an indicating torque measuring device. This can’t be done with the pinion in place.

Best,
Grady
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Old 04-16-2006, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RarlyL8

The pinion bearing race was removed (it fell out) and the area thoroughly cleaned and scuffed up then glued in place. A couple of mechanics told me of this proceedure and claimed good results using it.
IMO, once the pinion bearing bore is pounded out, the case is junk. What would a replacement case be worth?
Old 04-16-2006, 08:25 PM
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