Brake Upgrade Advice Please

asphaltgambler · 04-04-2006, 06:10 PM

Looking to improve the braking on my '85 Targa project. I don't do track just spirited street stuff. The car has power brakes.

A) I'm keeping the 16" fuchs....... B) I like the brake upgrade kit from the other "P" catalog company (Which I hate) Kit has new powdercoated early turbo calipers in red, drilled rotors (I like), pads, adaptors, and steel braided lines. Price nudging $2K with shipping. A little on the high side for me but it is ready to go with everything you'd need.

I have also heard of people using the 944 tubo calipers all way round but I'm not sure if it is a bolt on.

I don't mind buying /rebuilding used calipers but I'm not into cobbing up adapters, lines, etc.

The later BIG brake kits are not of interest to me as they will not fit under my stock wheels and I don't need that much additional stopping power.

Advice please.

JeremyD · JeremyD's Garage

Go here first

http://home.nycap.rr.com/wmv/generalbrmd.htm

These look good
http://www.esells.com/ecitemlist11.asp?CO=NC&CMD=SRCH&AIMCID=4937&AIMDID=44409

I have the 993 probraking kit
Busy weekend coming up - Brakes and such

Super_Dave_D · Super_Dave_D's Garage

I was in the same boat as you (thought I needed more). My man told me stock brakes was enough for normal driving and when I called Pelican to order parts, the salesman said the same thing. He could have burned me with a bunch of high dollor stuff but he didn't. I guess he knows how to get repeat business. I replaced my rotors, lines, pads, sensors and fresh fluid and it made a world of difference. Not to mention it only cost me 600 bucks.

charleskieffner · 04-04-2006, 08:52 PM

heard the exact same lecture...........going to zimmerman rotors, better pads and ducting from who else? pelican. already did stainless brake lines and bleeders and bleed system. i am limited to pca showroom stock specs, so my engine doesnt go hyper warp drive like others here!

VincentVega · 04-04-2006, 09:43 PM

Most upgrades are focused on creating a bigger heat sink, not really improving stopping distances. For street driving try freshining the system, fresh fluid and higher friction pads.

What tires are you running? Sticky rubber isnt just good for corners.

edward993 · 04-04-2006, 09:52 PM

You asked for advice, right? Make sure your brakes are in good shape, with good (not worn out) components/fluid, and are working properly. For a street car, there is absolutely no net improvement in "upgrading" to this or that caliper/rotor setup. Bragging rights and more unsprung weight is about all you get ...not to mention a lighter wallet.

What, specifically, leads you to believe your brakes are lacking? There are those who track these cars with stock components and have no issues. The faster/more consistent one gets on the track, then one can ratchet up to track-only pads, then brake cooling, then ultimately larger brakes. But for your (street) application, the stock components (again, in good condition/good working order) will easily overcome the tires in any (street) situation. So if all is well with your braking system and you're looking to improve braking performance, perhaps look into stickier rubber as this just as significant a component as any other.

Edward

asphaltgambler · 04-05-2006, 05:25 AM

My concern is more the way larger caliper/rotor looks behind the wheel. I know the stock stuff is up to par But I confess that the way the kit looks is very important to me ....being honest

charleskieffner · 04-05-2006, 05:41 AM

try taking your car to a local track coming up here as summer approaches. have new or good pads, fresh fluid and see how it works. plus the value added bonus of seeing what other cars are using. found out at 85 degrees here in phx after numerous laps that i had to get on brakes sooner each successive lap from heat buildup. when run hard before during much cooler weather brakes were not even an issue. as it gets hotter here the morning runs will be better braking on cooler track ie. not as much traction, as afternoon comes on better traction as track temps come up, but you'll notice your brakes fade as daytime temps soar. its a ying yang thing! like i mentioned i must follow pca show room stock guidelines so zimmermans ducting and better pads is all i can do! believe me there were a couple of corners where i wish i had dual parachute deployed anchors to slow me down!

DW SD · 04-05-2006, 07:29 AM

Why not look at the boxster caliper upgade? You can get the bling you want, reasonable price, 4 piston calipers and reduce unsprung weight.
Just a thought....

Doug

asphaltgambler · 04-05-2006, 07:51 AM

Are the boxter calipers direct fit? What years? If not, who makes a kit?

randywebb · 04-05-2006, 09:35 AM

for looks only, try Big Reds & see if they fit

you'll want to search for pics of other changes that you like on this bbs

will painting your current calipers red give you enuff looks? that will be infinitely chepaer and will not harm the performance like a heavier setup will

JeremyD · JeremyD's Garage

Well, Braking is not that easy - alot of factors come into play such as car HP - weight, track (or use), tire size as well as compound. For most users - the stock brakes are plenty. If you have a heavy car - with HP - and you drive agressively - you can run out of brakes - and that's not much fun

Thrasher · Thrasher's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by randywebb
for looks only, try Big Reds & see if they fit

you'll want to search for pics of other changes that you like on this bbs

will painting your current calipers red give you enuff looks? that will be infinitely chepaer and will not harm the performance like a heavier setup will

Hey Randy,

You bring up a good point. My Carrera calipers are dingy and I was thinking about a nice coat of paint on them for aesthetics, but then I saw someone bring up a point that the paint will impair the heat sink capability of the metal.

Is this true? If yes, is it significant enough to look for other finishing options (cad plating, etc.)?

I don't think Porsche painted these calipers when new and maybe they had a reason... or maybe it was just pre-bling in 1984.

Obviously we're talking about hi-temp paint, so maybe that negates the paint sealing in heat theory.

randywebb · 10:51 AM

"paint will impair the heat sink capability of the metal"

- no, that is NOT true

heat capcity or ability to act as heat sink is essentially the ability of a chunk of material to absorb heat WITHOUT rising very much in temperature (don't confuse amount of heat with tempereature - the latter is an intensive measurement)

What the paint WILL do is to slightly inhibit the ability of the caliper to lose heat by convection (wind), tho probably not by radiation. This is not important b/c:
1. heat loss from the caliper is small rel. to heat loss from the rotor
2. convective heat loss is not changed much by a thin coat of paint

yadada yada...

So paint the caliper and enjoy the bling. It is a lot cheaper than what you wanted to do initially...

IF you do want a real upgrade ever... Bill Verburg has worked out almost everything .. the only exception is the new product that is on the recent thread with a title like almost makes you wonder why you went to 16 inch wheels -- or something like that - it was active yesterday.

randywebb · 12:42 PM

Someday I will paint my calipers too...

I must however confess a cedrtain attraction to bling - either red dual piston somethings, or the 930S calipers.

Of course, this what all of us really, really want...

Light weight, nearly immune to thermal problems except perhaps at LeMans or Sebring etc. and just a bit too unrelaible re maintenance and too expensive right now.

randywebb · 04-05-2006, 10:59 AM

This pic should sear into your mind the importance of heat loss from the rotor as vs. the caliper...

True, it isn't a cast iron rotor, but it is a compelling image.

Thrasher · Thrasher's Garage

Yowza, not to mention how good/fresh brake fluid is needed.

Ok, that's exactly what I was asking about: heat capacity vs. heat loss by radiation. I guess seeing the finned 930 calipers made me think the caliper needed to dissipate heat effectively, and since the rotor is vented and spinning while the caliper is a big block of static iron, it really needed to be able to "breathe".

FWIW, I have never felt the need for "better" brakes on my Carrera, including on the track. I'm simply not that good a driver (yet). New rotors, pads and fluid were all mine needed to give me plenty of stop w/o fade so far.

rrpjr · 04-05-2006, 11:52 AM

Good posts, Randy.

Any particular paint recommended?

randywebb · 04-05-2006, 12:46 PM

That stuff they have at the Lockheed skunk works would be fun.

I think the kits are a lacquer. Some have used powder coat.

Then there is the guy who painted his calipers... it was in an ad somebody posted a while back... Fun for the whole family.

Thrasher · Thrasher's Garage

I know several have used hi-temp spray engine enamels with varying results. The kits run about $15 and are brush-on.

I've never used either - anyone care to comment which work better? I think several guys have posted on this, and one tip I saw was to mask using aluminum foil to avoid having to disconnect/remove the caliper.