'Ring times for various cars

randywebb · 04-05-2006, 10:01 AM

Any ideas on where I can find times for both old race cars (e.g. a Testarossa or Mas. Birdcage - the latter won in 1960), and for newer production cars (959, C-GT, Boxster S, etc.) at the ring?

I'm curious in how the times compare...

Emission · Emission's Garage

This will be interesting.

911teo · 04-05-2006, 10:33 AM

Tire technology is what has allowed cars to improve the ring lap times dramatically in the recent years.

I was reading for example that the new 997 GT3 Michelin Cups are worth 1 second per minute over the olds... So one could read the new 997 GT3 improvement of 10 seconds over the 996 GT3 as an icredible improvement only to find out that 70% of that has actually nothing to do with the car itself.

randywebb · 04-05-2006, 10:42 AM

sure tires are very important

but the innovation of the tube frame was too (Birdcage)

& so was the switch to mid-engined cars (Birdcage was about the last front engined car)

also, the stats will say nothing about how easy it is for a good driver to achieve the lap times -- as compared with an outstanding driver and a tricky, dangerous car (917 anyone?)

but I still want to get the data... anybody know where or how to get it?

Netspeed · 04-05-2006, 10:44 AM

Check the Wiki link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurburgring

Down near the bottom are some links to websites that have all the figures. A lot of times vary due to the different track configurations throughout the years.

Netspeed · 04-05-2006, 10:45 AM

I think the CGT ran a 7:32 there. Excellence had a recent article on running at The Ring.

The fastest anyone has been around the Ring was Stefan Bellof(sp?) in a Porsche 956 at around 6:11....I think.

911teo · 11:38 AM

..

Netspeed · 04-05-2006, 11:05 AM

How about great engineering including advancements in tire tech?

911teo · 04-05-2006, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Netspeed
How about great engineering including advancements in tire tech?

Cheeky.... my IE locked me out...

Netspeed · 04-05-2006, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 911teo
Cheeky.... my IE locked me out...

??

I would agree that tires would be the only thing making a car faster such as in the world's most popular spec series...Nascar!

911teo · 04-05-2006, 11:50 AM

I thought u were making fun of me as I duplicated my post abt improvement in tire technology...

randywebb · 04-05-2006, 12:54 PM

After looking at the wiki stuff...
Let me reprase this query - anybody know of a race track that has remained essentially the same since the 1960's and where times might be compared fro production cars vs. race cars?

Also, who is willing to put some modern rubber on their Birdcage and loan it to me? Or even a 375LM?

GrantG · GrantG's Garage

Not very many tracks are unchanged (Monza, Nurburgring, Hockeheim, Spa, etc. are all vastly different). And the ones that haven't had wholesale changes like the ones above have had chicanes added and other changes. I'd be curious about the least molested old track too...

Netspeed · 04-05-2006, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 911teo
I thought u were making fun of me as I duplicated my post abt improvement in tire technology...

Not at all....I just thought that suspension engineering would be right up there with advancements in tire technology.

Netspeed · 04-05-2006, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GrantG
Not very many tracks are unchanged (Monza, Nurburgring, Hockeheim, Spa, etc. are all vastly different). And the ones that haven't had wholesale changes like the ones above have had chicanes added and other changes. I'd be curious about the least molested old track too...

How about Le Mans until the mid 80's?

Mr Beau · 04-05-2006, 03:27 PM

A Ford Puma with 3 people (plus luggage) is around 11 minutes. My friend Pablo driving my car this past summer can be seen here.

I'll have to upload my lap at some point. There was one corner early on where it got a bit sideways and I decided to cool it a bit. We still had 6000 km to do on our Eastern Europe road trip...

jluetjen · jluetjen's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by randywebb
After looking at the wiki stuff...
Let me reprase this query - anybody know of a race track that has remained essentially the same since the 1960's and where times might be compared fro production cars vs. race cars?

Sure! Lime Rock Park (if you ignore the occasionally used chicane after the climbing turn).

911teo · 04-06-2006, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Netspeed
Not at all....I just thought that suspension engineering would be right up there with advancements in tire technology.

Let's take our beloved 911 as an example. PAG have always been considered good engineers... The biggest imprivement in the 911 history related to the suspension technology was the introduction of the multi-link rear suspension on the 993.

The 996 and 997 refined that, together with a stiffer unibody.

It would be interesting to see what it is worth in terms of lap times

Netspeed · 04-06-2006, 06:40 AM

I wonder if Porsche has ever done a structural analysis of the old 911 body (pre-993). I'm sure they know to the exact degree of rigid the 997 body is. Just curious.....

Scott Clarke · Scott Clarke's Garage

I wonder if it would be more productive to look at vintage race lap times on contemporary tracks. You should be able to find qualifying times in sanctioning body web sites. Such a study is easy to do first hand by attending a vintage race. Many events feature cars from a broad range of eras.
-Scott