3.0 into 69 911E woes

[chuckw951]

Last July my mechanic started a conversion project for me. Basically the idea was to put a 1982 911SC motor into a 1969 911E. My mechanic has run into a number of roadblocks and has thrown in the towel. The car is coming back to me this weekend.

Here is where the project is:
1982 911SC motor rebuilt and assembled. (see:this thread ) Bearings, reseal, replaced P&Cs (nikasil), valves, headstuds, etc.
Purchased 70/71 transmission, clutch package and shifter cable.
Motor and transmission installed in car. Oil lines are connected. SSI Exhaust and muffler bolted up.
Fuel accumulator and SC CD ignition box bolted in.
Have CIS fuel pump but not yet installed.

Here is what needs to be done:
Connect '69 wiring harness to engine wiring harness. Connect ignition.
Connect clutch cable. Apparently a special clutch cable end is needed for 70/71.
Install fuel pump and lines. Probably need fuel filter assembly too.
Need to install fuel pump relay for pump.
Gauges. Need SC tach. Not sure if temp/pressure pickups on SC motor are compatible with '69 gauges.
And once the motor is running I need to add an oil cooler.

Where oh where to begin? Maybe I should sell the SC motor and go back to a 2.0 motor!!!

Chuck
Annapolis, MD

[RichMason]

Don't give up! Lot's of people have done this conversion and the information should be in the archives of this BBS.

[chuckw951]

Rich,

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I didn't mean to sound distraught, more like frustrated. Going almost a year without a P-car is tough! Now that it will be back in my garage I'll be able to take over the project and get it going again. It's all just a matter of parts and labor, right?

Chuck

[Alan.UK]

It sounds like most of the work is done.. you are almost there so keep going. In fact you are not that far off at all. I am still in the planning stages of my 3.6 conversion and would love to be in your position. Just think one day very soon you will fire that motor up, and after its run in it will be a scream..

Then you will be re-united with the tarmac and look back on all this with fond memories.

Alan.UK

71 S
3.6 motor (sat on the floor)

[jpnovak]

Since I will be installing a 3.0 in my 71 project in the near future I will share some of my notes. They are not specific details since your engine will be abit different than mine with carbs.

>Here is what needs to be done:
>Connect '69 wiring harness to engine wiring harness.

You will need to watch the pin connections for each system. Find a wiring diagram for each model year and make sure the pins mate up. for example, a blue wire that goes from the alternator to the voltage regulator needs to mate to the same pin number on the 14-pin connector. Take your time its pretty simple.

>Connect ignition.

Follow the same as above. There will be a trigger wire coming from the dist that goes to the CD. Then the output goes to the coil. don't forget (+) and gnd connections.

>Connect clutch cable. Apparently a special clutch cable end is needed for 70/71.

If you are using a pull-type 901 tranny you will need the correct cable. The larger 225 mm clutch is a good choice over the smaller version that was in the 69. Just run the new cable from the pedal cluster through the tunnel. the cable hooks to the mount and then the arm.

>Install fuel pump and lines. Probably need fuel filter assembly too.
Need to install fuel pump relay for pump.

the fuel pump for a CIS system mounts by the gas tank on the steering crossmember. Since your E had MFI at some point, you already have the return lines. Make sure the feed return lines are connected properly through the filter and accumulator.

>Gauges. Need SC tach. Not sure if temp/pressure pickups on SC motor are compatible with '69 gauges.
And once the motor is running I need to add an oil cooler.

the senders will be different. Just buy some new ones that go with the 69 guages and mount them on the 3.0. do this before installing the engine as they are behind the CIS. Otherwise you can use the SC guages. The tach should work. Make sure the black/purple wire is connected coming from your CD.

good luck with the project. It's not as daunting as it seems. You may feel intimidated since your mechanic gave up. I might use this opportunity to find another mechanic after you see how easy it can be.

I'd like to check out your project. I live about 45 min away.

[IROC]

Originally posted by jpnovak
the fuel pump for a CIS system mounts by the gas tank on the steering crossmember. Since your E had MFI at some point, you already have the return lines. Make sure the feed return lines are connected properly through the filter and accumulator.

One thing to note is that even on CIS cars the fuel pump was located in the rear up until sometime in the '77 model year, I think. A pump mounted in the rear will work just fine. In fact, I have a pump mounted in the rear of my '76 for the 3.2 in my car. This should also make routing fuel lines easier as now you're only dealing with lines that are 3 feet long or so.

Mike

[chuckw951]

JP,

Thanks for your notes, very helpful. Car will be delivered this Saturday, so after that you are more than welcome to stop by.

It terms of connecting the wiring harnesses, do you know of a source for connectors/wires? I would like to make it look as "stock" as possible for a clean install.

Thanks again.

Originally posted by jpnovak

I'd like to check out your project. I live about 45 min away.

[chuckw951]

Originally posted by IROC
One thing to note is that even on CIS cars the fuel pump was located in the rear up until sometime in the '77 model year, I think. A pump mounted in the rear will work just fine. In fact, I have a pump mounted in the rear of my '76 for the 3.2 in my car. This should also make routing fuel lines easier as now you're only dealing with lines that are 3 feet long or so.

Mike

Originally my mechanic recommended that I get a 75 fuel pump (74-77 the same?) so that we could put the pump in the rear. I think there's a difference...one pushes fuel the other pushes it? I'm not sure. So I ordered a 75 pump per his recommendation.
My mechanic told me yesterday that the pump that he received was an SC pump rather than an earlier pump. I'll have to look at the part numbers to be sure. Wish i would have known sooner so that I could return it. Oh well, suppose I can mount it up front.

[Tyson Schmidt]

'69 is a one year only wiring harness in the rear. There is no 14 pin connector in the left rear. That's what sucks so bad a bout this particular conversion. I'm in the process of converting a '69E to a 3.0 at work currently.

What I did is match up the two wiring diagrams and made my owm connector harness. The '69 uses the round connectors that look just like the ones for the throuigh-the-body connectors for the taillights. They are also located on the rear shock crossmember. Because of this, I soldered in the appropriate pins on one end to mate with the 3.0 engine harness, and ran the jumper wires over to the '69 engine harness with a '69 connector soldered on that end. This way, it's a totally reversible swap, with factory connectors at either end.

I also mounted a CIS pump up front with SC suspension, and a late-model tank. The center tunnel had to be opened up to fit the larger late-model fuel lines as well. There are many other issues to deal with that I won't get into, as they are project-specific, but basically, this is one of the toughest conversions there is. The '69 wiring truly sucks.

[chuckw951]

Tyson,

Thanks for the words of wisdom. I've contacted a couple of local mechanics about the project....and this is consistant with what they have said...."if it was a '70 or up it would be a whole lot easier." So now I know. So is it necessary to use a late-model fuel tank or can I work with what I have?

Thanks.

Chuck

Originally posted by Tyson Schmidt
'69 is a one year only wiring harness in the rear. There is no 14 pin connector in the left rear. That's what sucks so bad a bout this particular conversion. I'm in the process of converting a '69E to a 3.0 at work currently.

What I did is match up the two wiring diagrams and made my owm connector harness. The '69 uses the round connectors that look just like the ones for the throuigh-the-body connectors for the taillights. They are also located on the rear shock crossmember. Because of this, I soldered in the appropriate pins on one end to mate with the 3.0 engine harness, and ran the jumper wires over to the '69 engine harness with a '69 connector soldered on that end. This way, it's a totally reversible swap, with factory connectors at either end.

I also mounted a CIS pump up front with SC suspension, and a late-model tank. The center tunnel had to be opened up to fit the larger late-model fuel lines as well. There are many other issues to deal with that I won't get into, as they are project-specific, but basically, this is one of the toughest conversions there is. The '69 wiring truly sucks.

[chuckw951]

Update: The car has returned home and is sitting in the garage.
With the exception of the "loose ends" the swap looks pretty clean. The 3.0 sits nicely in the engine bay; for some reason I thought that the bigger motor would look bigger but it doesn't. The heating system was backdated and the stock heat hoses across the top were removed. I've located a mechanic that has done similar swaps in the past and is familar with wiring harnesses and making custom fuel lines and the like. Turns out that I do have the fuel filter/fuel accumulator housing which is good. The 6pin CD box is installed and there is a harness to the SC motor that plugs into the CD box. So now I just need to load it on a roll-back and get it to his shop sometime in July.

Chuck

[Jamie79SC]

Hey, hey, hey.

Before you cut-up that 1969 wire harness, didn't Dave Cardone on the board recently have a fire in his 1969 912E and is in need of a wire harness? I don't know if they're the same harness, but if they are, maybe you guys can work out a deal where he gets your NLA harness and he get's you an SC one.

If not, my bad.

[chuckw951]

Jamie,

Actually there will be no cutting of either harness. My mechanic is going to create a custom harness to go between the 6 pin connnector and the 14 pin SC connector. The '69 engine harness went with the 911E motor. I traded the 2.0 motor for the 3.0 motor. Thanks for the idea though.

Chuck

[Jamie79SC]

My bad.

[CamB]

Haha. Everything Tyson said. My mechanic complained bitterly.

Other issues for me were gauge related - I have a T and it didn't come with combo gauges. Oh well.

[chuckw951]

Originally posted by CamB
Haha. Everything Tyson said. My mechanic complained bitterly.

Other issues for me were gauge related - I have a T and it didn't come with combo gauges. Oh well.

I'm still unclear about the gauges and whether I'll need different gauges or sensors.

Tach - have heard that I need an SC tach, yet others have told me the stock tach will work
Oil pressure - should I mount a '69 pressure sensor on the 3.0
Oil pressure idiot light - same question
Oil temp - same question
Speedo - I'm using a 70/71 trans so I think that should work with the stock speedo
Oil level - I'm using an early tank with this set up, so nothing's changed. Is the oil level in the wiring harness? Guess I need to make sure that is connected too.

Thanks for all of the tips...

[CamB]

I'll try to answer from my car (remember I didn't do the work, just asked questions):

Tach - have heard that I need an SC tach, yet others have told me the stock tach will work

Tricky one. If you had an E, and the E had a CDI, and the CDI provided the signal for the tach, then the tach should work. You might just have to try it and see.

Oil pressure - should I mount a '69 pressure sensor on the 3.0

Yes. There are other threads on this. Pelican sells the right sensor. I have a feeling it mounts in a different place on an early car and my mechanic replicated this.

Oil pressure idiot light - same question

Don't know.

Oil temp - same question

Don't know. Check if the part number for the two is different (as a first step). I have a feeling I have an SC sender and a '69 gauge, but its only a feeling.

Speedo - I'm using a 70/71 trans so I think that should work with the stock speedo

Seems reasonable. I converted to a 915 with electronic speedo, so had an SC speedo modified to look like a '69 speedo.

Oil level - I'm using an early tank with this set up, so nothing's changed. Is the oil level in the wiring harness? Guess I need to make sure that is connected too.

Willl be fine if you had oil level to start with. The '69T was unusual in that it had cost-saving 912 gauges - I think some other Ts had it too - which meant only fuel level, oil temp and a big idiot light. No oil level, no oil pressure. This was so pervasive as to extend to supplying an oil tank without the facility for mounting an oil level measuring and sending unit. As a result, I still don't have one.

[chuckw951]

CamB,

Hey thanks for the info. Just ordered a whole bunch of parts from Pelican to get this project moving again. Actually the spending I'm doing on this car might restart the world economy!

Chuck

Originally posted by CamB
I'll try to answer from my car (remember I didn't do the work, just asked questions):

[chuckw951]

Quick update on this project.

I briefly considered selling the car but as my significant other pointed out I would probably just turn around an buy another one, so fix the one you got. Ha! She knows me.

Here are my latest ideas and findings:

Fuel: Remove the CIS and go with new PMO carbs. Expensive but very pretty (not sure if you can say that about car parts)? Rather buy new then mess around with used carbs, plus I need the correct intake manifold to matchup. At this point I'll be running stock cams, pistons, heads, etc., but in the future who knows. Should I get 40s or 46 PMOs?

From my reading about the PMOs, it looks like I will have to replace the intake manifold studs with longer ones. This shouldn't be too hard (until one of them breaks or seizes right?) While CIS is a good system, I'm worried about the fuel lines and how difficult it would be to run late lines through the car. The original lines were designed for lower fuel pressures. If I install a CIS pump upfront I would worry that the stock lines could burst. Fire would be bad. One person I spoke with suggest that I should do the CIS fuel connections haphazardly and just get a halon fire system and fire suit. Took me a minute to figure out he was joking with me. I used to have a 944 turbo and those cars had an issue with fuel lines. Mine never broke but I read about folks that were not so lucky. Anyway, with carbs I could install a lower pressure pump either up front or in under the car on the drivers side (not sure what to call that area). Searching through the archives, some have used the return lines and some have not. I would want a lower pressure fuel pump rather than regulating down the MFI pump.

Ignition: I have a 6pin CD box. I would need to have the distributor recurved ($150 or so?). The next option would be to install an MSD box. Or even the HPV-1 electromotive system. I like the last option the best.

Wiring: I have wiring diagrams for the '82 motor and the 69 911E. I have the pin outs for the 14 pin SC engine harness. I have ordered a male 14 pin connector and have found a source for multicolored wire so the custom harness should look good. When the wire comes in I'll post pictures. It is coming from England apparently. Connecting to the 69 harness is a bit of a mystery. I'll have to post some pictures to explain. There is a 6 pin female connector at the back of engine compartment. The 6 pin plug has the following wires:
black/purple - tach
brown/grey - not sure - rear window defog?
blue - alternator light? not sure
green - not sure? car used to have sportomatic trans?? idiot light for sporto?)
green/black - oil temp sender
green/red - oil pressure

There also is harness with the left tail light connector (which works fine) and an offshoot harness with these wires:
thin red
thin black
grey
white/green (oil pressure idiot light?)
yellow (starter?)

The wiring for the rear window defogger has been disconnected, not sure where it plugs in. The wiring for the license plate light has been disconnected, not sure where that plugs in either. (Neither of which is a big deal at this point)

The last mystery wire is a thick red wire. It is not part of any harness.

Alternator
The 82 motor has an alernator with an internal regulator (I believe) so it seems like that will not be an issue, though I'll have to figure out how to wire that as well.

Instruments/sensors:
Tach - purchased used SC tach from parts heaven. looks like new for $100.
Oil pressure - purchased 69 sender from PP.
Oil temp - purchased 69 sender from PP.

Clutch/trans
I have the correct clutch cable in place and have ordered the right clutch cable end. I will need to connect the speedo and back up switch.


Chuck

[chuckw951]

Here is a picture of patient.



Here is a picture of the 82 SC motor in the car.