3.2; suspension; what to do re bushes and bars

[911 heathen]

Hi All

After a lot of searching and reading I still am not too sure what to do re my suspension on my 1987 3.2 with 90,000mile.

I have Billy HD's already (2 years since installed) but I still find the ride a bit too wallow-ey.

All the bushes will be replaced but I'm not sure if I can spring the $ for the brilliant looking Elephant a-arm system; conversion rates really blow such pieces out of the wife impossed budget :-(
(read new Kitchen ahoy...)

So suggestions sought here for the a-arms.....

I will probably go Neatrix/Welt for the Rear Spring plates....unless other ideas?

But the torsion bars; shall I go stiffer? Does anyone know what the 3.2 Club Sport had/has?

I want the car firm but not harsh nor choppy and I want to avoid being bounced around on bumpy roads; I drive mainly on 'country' roads in a very spirited manner. Once a year I do a track day.

Since the wife and kids also ride in the car on Club outtings, I still want a compliant ride (...to a point!).

Car rides on 17" cup 1's. But I may swap back to the 16" Fuchs in the future....

Muchos Grasias in advance

James

[MOMO3.2]

James:

Unfortunately I cannot offer you any advice on bushings or bars, because I have not changed mine yet. Budget contraints and all.

However, as the owner of a 1987 Carrera myself, I can tell you that I recently changed my dampers to "Billy" Sports all round, replaced my balljoints, added Turbo tie rods, switched my 7's to the front with 225's and put new 9's on the rear with 245's.

All of these items no doubt improved the handling characteristics of my car. However, I honestly believe the greatest improvement to the handling came when TRE lowered, aligned, and corner balanced my car. The handling is radically improved.

So, my advice is that whatever changes you do make to the bushings, torsion bars, or sway bars save enough money to take your car in to the most skilled 911 specialist in your area and have it properly set up.

Good luck.

Let us know how things turn out.

Mike

[ianc]

87's came stock with 19mm front and 25 mm rear torsions. I just swapped mine out for 22 fronts and 29 rears. The ride is a little harsh and rumbly. I have Bilstein HD's in front and Sports in rear.

You might want to go a little lighter than this if you're driving on bumpy roads, although stiffer bars will definitely take care of the 'wallowy' feeling. Big job and then a corner balance and alignment at the end...

ianc

[911 heathen]

Bump....
Thanks so far to Mike and ianc.

I am set on replacing the t-bars with stock torsion bars (preventative maintainence), Neatrix rear spring bushes but am wondering pros/cons on the Elephant vs Poly a-arm bushes..... Any insight would be awesome. For the extra NZ$350.00, are they worth it?

TTFN

[ianc]

I think it's a waste of money and time to replace the tbars with stock. It's one cubic buttload of work to change the rears, and if you're going to go to all that trouble, you might was well put something a little stiffer in there (if you know what I mean). Stock tbars just about never break; they aren't really a maintenance item...

As far as the Neatrix vs. Polybronze: I went Polybronze on my car. They work well, but they are expensive. The Neatrix are much cheaper, but there are fitment problems which might require turning them on a lathe to get the proper fit. They can also squeak. Hope that helps...

ianc

[911 heathen]

Good call Ian re the t-bars.

I can feel the Polybronze fittings coming on....

[goat]

my 2 cents...
Previous to my suspension upgrade I rode in a few cars with different setups. I went for the Polybronze fittings and upgraded to 21 and 28 bars.

The other factor is hollow or solid bars. I went for the hollow. tho I doubt I will tell the performace difference. If you want a detailed reason just do a few searches on the topic and you will have plenty to read up on.

[911 heathen]

Guys, with the polybronze, did you also stump up for the low friction mounts?
Based on Chuck's blurb, they seem to be must have items to ensure "system integrity"....

Tim, stock to stiffer t-bars; what differences there mate?

[goat]

The combo of the elephant components and the larger torsion bars has made for a semi stiffer ride. my setup still good for everyday kind of driving I think.
The rear has less squat on acceration and less roll in the turns.
The front was the most dramatic, the low friction fittings allow for more float than before. My old bushings the right side was binding up and metal to torsion bar was taking place so the comparison is really not fair to a working stock unit.
Overall I really like the ride better.
Once life gets less crazy I am looking forward to AX events and a few track days where I hope it will pay off in quicker times.
final note.. A good alignment from a good shop who can work with you and understand what you are going to do with the car will be a big factor in getting the most out of the suspension too.

[911 heathen]

Thanks Tim

The kind of roads you drive on, are they smooth or rough?

The roads over here vary from fairly smooth to pretty bumpy/choppy.
My fear is the stiffer t-bars (along with the 'stiffer' bushes), it will make for a ride that isn't 'compliant'...

[ianc]

The roads I drive on are fairly smooth for most part, but with the 22's and 29's, I get some chop and vibration over potholes etc. where I didn't notice it before. Normally I don't care about it that much; I'm not a 'smooth ride' kind of guy, but if I had it to do over again, I might have gone with a 21/28 combination. If you drive over rough roads, you might want to consider something a little less than that.

What prompted me to change was the 'wallowy' feeling you described earlier. There's a fairly sharp 90 deg. left hand bend near my house and I always motor through it fairly hard. Before, I could feel the car's weight shift back onto the right rear wheel, and feel the left front unloading. After changing the bars, I can't feel that at all, the car just powers through like it's on rails.

You'll definitely want to step up from the stock bars, that's for certain though...

As for the low friction mounts, I just went with the stock mounts up front and didn't have any trouble with the installation.

You can see a thread I posted about the install here:

Finished suspension rebuild this weekend

HTH,

ianc

[drums]

The secret to a firm but compliant ride are the tires. I put 22mm and 29mm hollow, Elephant T Bars, P/Bronze, Low Friction, Mono Balls, etc. and the ride is really nice. 16" X 8" rear [W/1" spacers], 16" X 7" front [Fuchs] with tires that are really close to stock in dimensions.
The experts told me it was going to be too harsh but I think they automaticly assumed I was going to put on 17's with very low profile tires. Keep the 17's for the track and your 16's for the road and you can have the best of both worlds. Upgrade your sway bars, too.
Enjoy!
Drums

[rfuerst911sc]

My car is currently in the shop for a suspension makeover. Last year I added Bilstein H.D. front and Sport rear shocks and Carrera 22mm front and 21mm rear sway bars. Now I'm going with 22mm front and 30mm solid torsion bars,turbo tie rods,new ball joints,lowering to Euro height,corner balance and alignment. I went with Elephant rear polybronze and graphite front bushings that had been modified with zerk grease fittings and internally grooved so grease will flow thru the bushings. From the research I did along with advice from my mechanic the ride will be stiffer but not rough and the suspension movement will actually be better with the new bushings. I expect to pick the car up this week and will update with my feelings on the upgrade.

[911 heathen]

Thanks ian, I checked out the past link. Nice work, nice car.
What dimension tires are you running? Any spacers?

Drums, yeah I think the Fuchs are going back on.....Like you say, it's all in the tires.

[ianc]

Hey 911,

the car has 7&8x16's running 205's and 245's. No spacers.

Put the Fuchs back on!

ianc

[911 heathen]

Ian, yes the turbo deep-dish Fuchs look great.
I have 6&7's that were standard for 1987.....must get me some 7&8's....

[911-32]

Knowing New Zealand and Christchurch, I suggest you talk to Jon Waring at Hadleigh. I have known Jon for many years and what he doesn't know about 911s isn't worth knowing. Tell him Richard Bernau sent you.

I have also been through the whole spectrum of std 89 Carrera to full track biased suspension. If I was building a car for NZ country roads and one track day a year, I would be happy with all rubber bushings, Neatrix for springplates, Bilstein HDs or Koni Reds and I would add a 22mm adjustable rear sway to tune out a fraction of understeer. Aligned, lowered a little and corner balanced and you are good to go. If you get the while you are in there bug then polybronze for the front A-arms are nice and Turbo 26mm rear torsions would be better than a bigger sway bar.

I know NZ roads and I don't think you need anything else for a road biased car. This will also be fine for the odd track day. With a very similar set-up to this, my mate Hamish Franklin won the Bridgestone Club championship about 10 years ago - ask Jon Waring about it.

If you get really track focused then all the above advice is useful. If you really want stiffer bushings then go Polybronze not poly. I've done that and the inevitable squeeking will drive you mad in a road car. If you are worried about ride then I think the shocks are the most important component. Having been thru HD, Sport and now custom valved race Bilsteins I should have some idea.

HTH
Richard

Here is some inspiration

[randywebb]

too beautiful to put under the car!

[911 heathen]

Thanks Richard.
It's great to have someone out there familiar with NZ conditions :-)

Yes, I know Jon (and Shirley!) and you are right, what he doesn't know isn't worth knowing!! Encyclopaedic is a word that comes to mind...

Glynn Jones looks after my car but I do need to find shop that can corner balance. This is probably where I'll call on Jon for advice...

You have confirmed my initial thoughts; along with the HD's already installed; Polybronze for the a-arms, Neatrix for the spring plates and 26mm rear t-bars. Plus rubber for all other bushings.

I am also on the prowl for a pair of 9J 16 Fuchs but these are Hens Teeth....so any advice from others out there to source these would be apprciated...

I have 17" Cup 1's currently but I plan to ditch these for the 7 & 8's I have stacked in the garage. The ride I seek won't happen with the Cups...

Joseph, thanks for the parts porn...

Will post a report once complete.

Now where is that credit card for some Pelican abuse!

Cheers
James