Fuchs Replicas?
 

From what I've seen Fuchs Replicas sell for considerably less than originals. What are the disadvantages of the replicas?

You are going to get a lot of replies about lack of strength, heavier weight, "cheap" appearance, etc., etc.. As long as you are happy with the look and understand the strength issues, I say go for it. The true answer is that they are just as good as any other cast wheel.
good luck, Ben

They break.

They're not nearly as strong as the originals. Strictly for street use only and even then, I'd be wary.

Mike

Has anybody actually saw "with their own eyes" one of these replica wheels self destruct at the track or street?

Dan

....Not true ! .....and a dangerous assumption. We're overlooking "details".

The original Fuchs are forged. Forging "squeezes" the molten or semi-soft hot metal in to a more dense package and makes for a stronger component. Casting does not do this.

The nuance? .......

Cast wheels are good and strong ( but HEAVY) ...because the spokes /rims ( whatever) has to be THICKER to make up for the lost strenth that the forging process provides. The Fuchs replicas are CAST and ARE NOT thicker ( to compensate) for the casting manufacturing process. OTHER DESIGN CAST WHEELS are OK because they are of their own design...not "copying" a Fuchs..and they can be ( and ARE) thicker where required to gain the required stength.


....it's all in the DETAILS ........

- Wil :eek:

They're cast, they're heavy and any real Porsche guy can tell in an instant they're knock offs. Buy real ones and get Jason, Harvey or Al Reed to finish them. You'll be much happier long term.

Fuchs Replicas?
 

Probably the best reason for the originals.

They're cast, they're heavy and any real Porsche guy can tell in an instant they're knock offs.

Thank you for your opinions.

There are plenty of treads posted here. My attempt at summarizing:

- Non of the replicas appear to be forged

- The original wheel design is centered around the properties offered by the forging process and a very specific alloy

- A cast Fuchs replica may be safe but is only as good as the particular manufacture who (re)designs/produces it. Made in China? No thanks.

- As mentioned a Fuchs style cast wheel must be beefed up to make up for strength...this adds weight.

- A DIN, ISO or TUV approved wheel would be desired

Great thread on the subect (includes a detailed description of the manufacturing process):

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=209775&highlight=fuchs+ replica

This was posted as a replica......

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110206789.jpg

Rick, judging from the picture, it looks like that wheel took some serious side impact in the bead area first to break out the center spokes. Do you guys think an original Fuchs would simply bend or fold over?

Dan

And this is why a forged wheel is pricey (casting is simply pumping molten alloy into a mold at low pressure = low density, low strength and brittleness).

A forged wheel will bend, not fracture like a stale cookie (no pun intended, but aren't the "cookies" a cast wheel?). Got this great old pic off this site some time back. Makes me appreciate my Fuchs even more.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1150815682.jpg

An original Fuchs will more likely bend...but DO keep in mind that some of these wheels are getting on to be 30-40 years old..and they CAN ( and DO) fatigue with similar catastrophic results.

Shorter answer is that forging ( as a process) will likely result in bending wheras a cast failure will usually "rip" quickly along a weak/fault line..

The picture of the failed Fuch replica does not necessarily indicate impact failure...could have been high-G load plus fatigue. Important is the point that it is more likely when the thickness is not increased on a wheel design that was thinner/forged in the first place.

- Wil

Not all casting processes are as you describe. Casting can be quite sufficient for wheels designed to be cast.

BTW, Fuch also designs and produces cast wheels.

Low pressure ( applied) casting techniques help avoid "holes" or voids and tend to "pack" the material better than regular casting techiques.

True enough...you CAN ge the required strength with casting, but the design and cross-section need to be beefier and that usually adds weight, as discussed.

- Wil

What about the original cookie cutter wheels? Are they cast or forged and are they more prone to failure than a replica Fuch?

keez:

If you read between the lines.....the cast Cookie cutters are NOT trying to imitate the design of a forged Fuchs...so THIS design...like so many other cast designs...should be OK. Don't forget, they are getting old too !

More or less prone to failure than a replica Fuchs ??? I wouldn't bet my skin on a "mission critical" part on a fake Fuchs, especially if the fake wasn't at least altered to compensate for the thinner forging used on the original.

- Wil

If you just have to save $$, then save it on the engine or interior or body repairs -- something that won't kill you.

The tires, wheels, and brakes + suspension are the most critical part of any car.

There is more than a little irony in driving a high-preformance sports/racing machine with low quality wheels on it. Isn't that too close to what we castigate the owners of Japanese cars with giant mufflers and neon underlights for??

I'm surprised Fuchs doesn't sue the fake makers for infringement...

Remember also that when the wheel breaks, it's going to start taking out a lot of suspension and brake components. Most of that damage was probably from after the wheel broke.

Wil...that's a good point. Some of these original wheels have been floating around for quite a number of years, some used in extreme stress situations. Anything will weaken and/or fail after a certain point of time. If that wasn't the case alot of these high priced parts that we're buying wouldn't be high priced anymore.
On another note, I'm going to look into a set of minilites, order the correct backspacing/offset that will assist in getting the best sized tire under the 911. Any opinions to the minilite wheel?

Anyone know where to get a forged engine case?

I hear the cast ones can brake.

Last year at our local vintage races I saw an early 911 with 15x7 fake Fuchs on the rear. The multiple large cracks were clearly visible from 6' away. I informed the owner's wife (owner not around). Later when he was out, I cringed at every lap. Nobody died that day, but I'm sure the guy will continue vying for the Darwin award.
I wouldn't use fake Fuchs on my VW.

derkpitt.... what's your point ? ..... the comparison is totally absurd if you understand the design elements of an engine compared to a wheel...

Wil

Wil,
Not only is it absurd (plus he can't spell/doesn't know the difference between "brakes" and "breaks") I think derkpitt is trying to convey that our safety concerns over fake Fuchs is a "tempest in a teapot". Much ado about nothing. You know, the "Not to worry, everything is going to be just fine" sentiment. My opinion of that is he's right!....well, that is until the one or two occasions when he is NOT right, a wheel breaks under load and at speed and then tragic things can happen.

Funny as we all fine them, there is a reason the Darwin Award jokes exist. Some guys just gotta learn the hard way. My $.02 - Fire away!

We wound up with an odd collection of fuchs wheels and "fakes" wheels at one point. In the SAME size range (I think it was 16x6) the fakies were almost 5 pounds heavier!

Five pounds of extra wheel weight per corner. :eek:

Buy a sound set of used Fuchs. They look right, weigh less, have more value and in every way are a superior wheel.

angela

Well, I was just trying to stir the pot a little.
Stirred it real good.

And your right, I'm not a good speeeller, so kick me some more if that makes you happy.

I'm not trying to compare apples to oranges.
Just looking at some other places where casting is used.

I do have two old cranks at home for my cudas.
One is forged and one is cast, which one do you think I should use?

Derk:
If you followed the thread...you'd see that casting...as a *method* of construction...wasn't being slammed.

BUT....copying a (thinner, stronger) forged piece and casting the clone without adding structural reinforcement.... borders on criminal.

A 911 engine case....with 8 main bearing supports for the long, counter-weighted crank.... is an entirely different situation, and can in no-way be compared to the issue at hand.

- Wil

what about these?
http://www.***************/productpage.aspx?pid=110674&name=911%c2%ae+Alloy+R eplica+5-Spoke

They are made in Italy. Do we assume that means quality?

only for food or wine

Although it should have been. Pound for pound, a forging will always be WAY stronger than a casting. Picture a bag of boiled spaghetti. Now bend it the way you like. Now freeze it, then try to bend it. That is the way the metallic grain structure is formed with a forging, but with heat and pressure rather than freezing. The superior grain structure of the material after it has been hot-worked ensures much greater strength and fatigue resistance.

Not to say that cast wheels can't be fine, but they will always be heavier than a forged wheel and this must be accounted for in their design. Forging is more expensive, but produces a better part.

ianc

Ian:
You're simply expanding upon what I had said...I don't think we're in sustantive disagreement.
Casting....as a "method"...is OK but you'll need larger cross sections to regain strength...hence more weight. It's a "system" answer ( as it so often is)...

The Italian Fuchs copy makes for interesting side-bar. On the one hand...it is cast ( but Pressure cast....a bit better than gravity casting...) and if made in Italy....probably has TUV certification. I would consider this OK...pending further investigation. Maybe it was made thicker where required to get it certified.

- Wil

(EDITED )

No, we're in perfect agreement. I was just saying that forging will produce a superior wheel to casting, and is preferred.

I too would advise the original poster to look for used Fuchs rather than go for replicas. Those Italian wheels aren't cheap...

ianc

Why didnt you tell the safety people at the track? Sure that they would have black flagged the car immediately.

But can you pick up a decent pair of 8 X 16's for $500 ($250 each)? I guess my question, seeing how I'm looking at the italian option for 8's, is am I better off picking a new pair of what looks like a high quatily cast 8's or an old pair of forged.
What kind of price difference are we talking about?

For street only application.

From the ad:
"This replica of the standard factory wheel is manufactured using the superior low pressure casting method for a superb finish."


Superior? To what, the original?

If it were TUV approved I'm sure they'd be touting the fact.

Superior to Ooog pouring lead he smelted over the fire in his cave into a depression in the sandy beach next to his buddy's cave. (Then they celebrate with roast mastodon and some mead.)

Apparently "Low Pressure" casting is the latest stage of development of this bronze age old craft - Hey, would polished bronze look cool or what?

Heavy, dude :)!

Foolishly, I assumed once the owner/driver was informed he would not go out. It certainly frightened me. Apparantly his pair are bigger than mine.

After he did go out, I notified the tech inspector. I didn't stick around to see what actions they took. The guy's wife could probably figure out it was me that ratted on him.

Wil, are you positive the "spokes" on the replicas are as "thin" as the ones on real Fuchs?? Would seem strange that they would copy that detail accurately but still have a wheel you can just look at quickly and tell it is not an original.....

I am not a fan of the replica wheels. A search should yeild some threads of cracked "real fuchs" too. I remember one a while back where Rdane had a few of them in his possesion.

I would think, but could be wrong, that a wheel that is 20-30 years old and has countless miles on it may start to fatigue at some point?

Cheers

catca:

I think we're re-treading some old stuff already mentioned here....

I'm not certain about all the fake Fuchs being as thin as the original, but that is the clear implication when photos like the failed one here cropped up soon after they were made available. They do look a "bit" different from the front, I agree, so some design change may have been made. I also think that a pressure cast Fuchs replca WITH TUV certification ( if such a combo exists)..may merit a second look. Lastly, we mentioned that even forged wheels have a fatigue life and some original Fuchs, some 30-40 years old... are starting to fail.

This all requires careful scrutiny by the buyer in all cases....

Wil

Picture a bag of boiled spaghetti. Now bend it the way you like. Now freeze it

So are these Italians wheels made of frozen spaghetti?