Grey market '85 930 Turbo, possible purchase. Need advice!

[Techno Duck]

First off i know nothing of the 911 Turbo's, especially the 930 type. Its been a dream car for as long as i can rememeber though. I am fairly mechanically savy having done all the work on my 944.. but air cooled and water cooled + front engined is a completlye different beast. Anyhow, i am considering purchase of this 911 Turbo. The owner is my father's friend's brother. From what i was told it was an '88 model, however i realized that the car is a grey market, and is most likely an '85 model.. and was probably imported in '88.

First let me explain the condition of it. It was defenetley left in a garage for most of its life, paint looks to be original and is pristine, no body damage evidence either. Car has 29,500k miles on it currently, 29,525 after my 'test drive' . Interior is in great shape except the power tilt for the seat back does not work, or atleast i could not get it working. Everything else works, a/c is cold ..etc. The passenger side window switch is a bit finnicky but does work. There is an aftermarket exhaust on it but i have no idea of brand. The car is a 4spd and shifts great, no synchro problems like on my 85k mile 944. I checked its garage spot and there is no oil spots or anything of that matter. Also had 15'inch Gotti wheels. 225s in the front... 335s in the rear. Holy crap, im happy the tires are new!

The car drives great. It was my first experience driving a 911, let alone the 930 type. I drove it slowly through the development getting used to the clutch..which takes ALOT of getting used to coming from a 944. It was heavy, but controllable and the floor mount is just plain weird! I grew to like it through. I honestly thought the boost gauge on the tach was broken as i was driving through the area, it never built boost. I then got it onto the open road.. and onto the nearest parkway. I went through the on ramp very slowly remembering the 911, especially the old ones can get you into trouble very quickly. I hit a straight run and was at roughly 3500 in 2nd gear.. punched it and i possibly had the biggest smile on my face since i got laid for the first time.

My father was on the phone in the passenger seat and we were coming up to an over pass.. another punch in 2nd and hes yelling into the phone "WHAT I CANT HERE YOU" and yelling at me to slow down. Haha, what a great car.

Anyhow, here are some pictures..







My main concern is registration and emissions. Does anyone in NY have a grey market type car and know how this works? The car does not have any NY registration or emissions stickers on the windshield, so i am not sure the story behind that (i really dont know much about the car and just test drove it today really). I am going to run a CarFax on the Vin to see what comes up. It does have a regular US style vin.. "WPOZZZ....etc".

I am not 100% sure i am going to buy it yet, as i will be taking out a pretty big loan from my father. But hes ok with doing it though. I also havent quiet figured out insurance for a 21 year old male with a 944 and now a 911 Turbo... :typing:

Does anyone have any advice on the grey market factor as well as anything else i should consider? I defenetley will take the car for a PPI if i am really am serious about purchase.

[nigel911]

21 with a 911 Turbo, the stuff dreams are made of... excellent.

Can't help with anything else but cool beans on the car, hope it all works out for you.

[mmastro]

First of all, congrats on the potential 930 ownership at the age of 21...Kudos to you!

I, too, purchased a Euro 930 (77) as my first 911 model. Mine was "federalized" in 77 and has a metal EPA sticker right below the door VIN plate. It shows the company that did the "conversion".

While I'm no expert on the technicalities of the grey market 930's,
the big potential problem with the grey 930's is that the fed conversion could have been botched by the company that did it. this would affect the ability to smog the car successfully. 930 smog parts aren't that easy to come by these days. But, I think your PPI would be able to spot any major problems in that arena. You could always replace the exhaust system with that of a Catalytic 930 system and adjust the fuel mixture and possibly the timing to pass the test, then switch it back for the rest of the year (or 2 if biannual). Or you could always find a guy who knows a guy who's brother can "smog" it for you.....

Other than that, the low mileage may be a worry, as 930's (and 911's in general) tend to go sour if they aren't driven. But again, the PPI should catch anything majorly wrong.

It really sounds like a helluva find! I say if the PPI doesn't throw any serious monkey wrenches into your machine, you should snatch that badboy up!! I love the Gotti's!! Talk about "period correct"!!

Of course there's the thing about how expensive these machines are to keep up, blah blah blah, but you'll forget about all that when the boost kicks in.

Cheers,

[Miguel Antonett]

Buy it and welcome to the 930 club!

Be careful until you get to know the car. Learn to handle the timing of the boost... go into turns slow and get out fast.

[Techno Duck]

Thanks for all of the information.

It really would be great to own the dream car at age 21, but frankly i am taking out probably a 20k loan from my father. Its a shame because i JUST finished paying him the money he loaned me back from when i bought my 944 about two years ago.

Anyhow i learned a bit more about the car. The car belonged to my fathers friend's, friend who had recently passed away. The car was left to his wife and she is selling off the cars he left.. a 928S4, Ferrari 355 and this 930. She cannot find any of the paperwork for the car and it currently has a lein on it i believe because she had to get proof of ownership through the court. My father and his friend are both in the dealer buisness and know the ins and outs of how stuff like this works so he would take care of it for me. I am going to think it over a bit and see. I like the car ALOT, but dont want to be drawn into a impulse buy. There are still alot of other factors to consider like insurance..and having to ever buy new tires!!!

[MIK911]

These opportunities dont come around very often. If you have a shot at buying it, and all checks out, you NEED to buy it.
Otherwise, you'll be kicking yourself for the next 20 yrs.
Believe me....i wish i had bought my 1st 911 20 yrs ago.

[MRM]

What's the asking price for the car? The VIN of WPOZZZ designates it as a European or ROW (rest of world) car. ROW cars usually go for a discount due to their emissions issues, instead of going for a premium due to their higher horsepower.

Bruce Anderson, the guru who wrote the Porsche 911 Performance Handbook (a must read) says that ROW 930s have real trouble running correctly after they've been US federalized but that the problem is easily fixed by replacing the exhaust system with the original Euro system. They are easy to get in the used market and sometimes show up on Pelican's classified section. The problem with using the Euor exhaust is that it no longer passes US emissions. So, according to Bruce Anderson, a ROW 930 will either run well or be US street legal - but not both at the same time. This creates issues with insurance, licensing, buying and selling. You have to be able to prove your car is legal to license or insure it.

But if you can swing it, the price is right, and you have the legalities sorted out, there's no doubt it will be a blast to have.

[David]

Sounds like a good car even if it is a Euro. I wouldn't pay much over $20K for it considering it's been sitting for quite a while and will probably have brake and fuel issues in the near future.

You'll have a hard time finding tires for the car, so I'd expect to buy new wheels when it's time for tires.

If you can deal with the extra weight and slightly different handling of the 930 over the 911 you'll enjoy it. The only real problem with the 930 is when you go to the dark side. There's a lot of things to do to make more power and they all cost money, sometimes a lot of it.

[ZLP]

Originally posted by 125shifter
There's a lot of things to do to make more power and they all cost money, sometimes a lot of it.

more like ALL the times

[slow&rusty]

Originally posted by ZLP
more like ALL the times

LOL....YES~!

[hbkramer]

If an 85 model,Consider clasic reg. for it if NY. 25 yr old car should qualify??
That Eliminates the smog issue for you and ins will certianly be lower.
Good Luck.
What a find.

[Techno Duck]

Hi again guys, really very good info.. i really appreciate it.

We have a feeling this car was already registerd and insured at some point in NYS according to the wife, but we are still trying to figure that one out. Passing smog is not a huge issue if you catch my drift, though it would make life alot easier.

HB, i considered the classic registration but its not quiet a 'classic' yet per se. The car is the same exact age as me, 21 years old!! I am going to try and add this car onto my policy as a historical or maybe classic insurance so i wont be paying competley up the butt for it.

David, the asking price for this car is a clean $25k. We both agree with you that we dont want to pay much over $20k for it. We are planning on asking a bit under her asking price of $25k and seeing what happens from there...

I did check on tire costs last night. The sizes on the Gotti wheels are 225/??/15 and 335/35/15 i believe. The only tires i could find that even come close are the Pirelli P-zeros, 225/50ZR15 and 345/35YR15. The rear tires alone are $470 each! Holy crap. A full set of tires for this car would be 1/3 the price of my 944 .

Think i can find anything for these at Costco?? .

What kid of offset does this car use anyhow? 23.3 or the 52.3? I have a couple of sets of 16's for my late offset 944 that i could perhaps throw on this car for the time being. The widest being a 245 for the rear..hah!

I can live with the car being stock. Really i am coming from a 150hp 944 which still feels fairly fast to me around the track. If i really do decide to buy this 930 its going to be the weekend and nice weather only car. The only additions for a long time will probably be a boost gauge and a wideband AFR. I will probably decide to auto-x the car once so i get an idea of what its like at the limit, but with the cost of tires for this thing i am sure it will sit only for the weekends.

But really, i am not sure if i am really going to purchase it yet.

[Porsche_monkey]

That appears to be a very fair price, provided the car is sound.

[dailydriven911]

Originally posted by Techno Duck
First off i know nothing of the 911 Turbo's, especially the 930 type. Its been a dream car for as long as i can rememeber though. I am fairly mechanically savy having done all the work on my 944.. but air cooled and water cooled + front engined is a completlye different beast. Anyhow, i am considering purchase of this 911 Turbo. The owner is my father's friend's brother. From what i was told it was an '88 model, however i realized that the car is a grey market, and is most likely an '85 model.. and was probably imported in '88.

First let me explain the condition of it. It was defenetley left in a garage for most of its life, paint looks to be original and is pristine, no body damage evidence either. Car has 29,500k miles on it currently, 29,525 after my 'test drive' . Interior is in great shape except the power tilt for the seat back does not work, or atleast i could not get it working. Everything else works, a/c is cold ..etc. The passenger side window switch is a bit finnicky but does work. There is an aftermarket exhaust on it but i have no idea of brand. The car is a 4spd and shifts great, no synchro problems like on my 85k mile 944. I checked its garage spot and there is no oil spots or anything of that matter. Also had 15'inch Gotti wheels. 225s in the front... 335s in the rear. Holy crap, im happy the tires are new!

The car drives great. It was my first experience driving a 911, let alone the 930 type. I drove it slowly through the development getting used to the clutch..which takes ALOT of getting used to coming from a 944. It was heavy, but controllable and the floor mount is just plain weird! I grew to like it through. I honestly thought the boost gauge on the tach was broken as i was driving through the area, it never built boost. I then got it onto the open road.. and onto the nearest parkway. I went through the on ramp very slowly remembering the 911, especially the old ones can get you into trouble very quickly. I hit a straight run and was at roughly 3500 in 2nd gear.. punched it and i possibly had the biggest smile on my face since i got laid for the first time.

My father was on the phone in the passenger seat and we were coming up to an over pass.. another punch in 2nd and hes yelling into the phone "WHAT I CANT HERE YOU" and yelling at me to slow down. Haha, what a great car.

Anyhow, here are some pictures..







My main concern is registration and emissions. Does anyone in NY have a grey market type car and know how this works? The car does not have any NY registration or emissions stickers on the windshield, so i am not sure the story behind that (i really dont know much about the car and just test drove it today really). I am going to run a CarFax on the Vin to see what comes up. It does have a regular US style vin.. "WPOZZZ....etc".

I am not 100% sure i am going to buy it yet, as i will be taking out a pretty big loan from my father. But hes ok with doing it though. I also havent quiet figured out insurance for a 21 year old male with a 944 and now a 911 Turbo... :typing:

Does anyone have any advice on the grey market factor as well as anything else i should consider? I defenetley will take the car for a PPI if i am really am serious about purchase.

Just make sure the 944 is the car you drive the majority of the time or at least tell your insurance company that. They will rate you accordingly. That way you won't be paying an arm and a leg for it. Are you still living w/ your parents or in school? You can significantly save alot of money if you are under your parents policy. If you have your own that's okay but you will be paying more for it. Have fun with your new car if it work out!

Jayson

[gtu935]

Great find. I bought my 930 in 1985. I started tracking it in 95. Now the car that started as a 930 has gone through many changes and now is only for the track.
I can help you with the NYSI if you need as well as the PPI. Tire price might be the last of your financial worries. if you do by the car. Repairs on these cars can get pricy.

Don't hesitate to call me if you have any questions

[Garen]

Nice car. Registration aside, the car should be a blast. The good thing is that the 930 is largely unchanged from about '78-'88. The bad thing is that the 930 is largely unchanged from about '78-'88! (watch this space as the die-hards correct me on every minute detail...) This means a ton of available parts, and even more available expertese and advice.

If you do end up getting it, do a DE or two. These cars are not as evil as most think. They just DEMAND your respect. As for tires, if you are looking for affordable wheels, try www.ccwheel.com. Go to the gallery section, and under "Porsche", you can see a 930 (my car - shameless plug!!) with the "classic" wheels. Let us know if you pick the car up...

[Miguel Antonett]

How come you haven't bought yet????????

[Noah930]

$25K seems like a fair price, if the car is indeed as advertised. I'd definitely PPI it, though.

Those aren't stock size rims. OEM was 16" Interesting that a PO replaced them with a -1 size.

If you're fuzzy about the exact age of the car: what does the little metal plaque say on the driver's side doorjamb? There's a date of manufacture stamped on it. And where did you get the VIN? US model 930's started out with WPOJBO... while RoW models started out with the WPOZZZ... you mentioned. However, if you look at the VIN stamped/stickered in the front trunk, even US models read WPOZZZ... at that location (while the rest of the VINs elsewhere in the car all read WPOJBO...). The VIN will also let you know what model year the car comes from. You can use the Red Book to decipher it. Mine's packed away in storage, so I can't help there. But your local megabookstore might have one on the shelf for you to peruse.

edit: And definitely check on insurance before you buy. Your insurance carrier may (or may not) give you a hard time because the car is "grey market." Ask about what they would value the car at (as some insurance companies will pay out less for grey market cars). When you file a claim due to theft or an accident is not the time to find out that little caveat in their policy.

[Techno Duck]

gtu935, are you the famous Bill Rudtner i read about often in Panorama and The Porsche Post? I was actually going to take the car down to you if i did indeed decide to purchase to have a PPI done. The car is located in Bellmore right now, right off NewBridge road and maybe 2 minutes from the Soutern State.

Noah930, the plate on the door jamp says it was made in 1985. My guess is the car was imported in '88.. hence why the wife believes it was an '88 model. The VIN does indeed start with WPOZZZ. I figured that vin would work because that is how the prefix on my 944 is. But it does not run in CarFax.

The insurance isnt to much of a big concern right now. I know it will be ALOT but i am prepared to pay if i have to. You gotta pay to play you know. I am 21 and have been driving since 17, no accidents and no tickets (knock on wood). I am pretty reserved on the street and tottaly respect the power of the 930. I would love to do atleast one DE and one auto-x in the car if i did buy it. My parents no way in heck would insure this car under there policy as if i get into an accident.. i dont want to put there financial security at risk. If i get screwed, they take two cars and screw around with my credit. My parents have alot more to loose than me, a house, 3 cars...etc. The 930 will defenetley be listed as the 'second' vehicle with my policy, and if i can get a cheaper rate with a mileage cap i would defenetley take that route.

Typically how much can i find a set of 'normal' sized 16's for this car for? I have a few sets of late offset.. 52.3mm D90's and C2 wheels from a 968 as spares for my 944 (track wheels, winter wheels). Would it be possible to fit one of these sets to the 930 until i could afford a proper set of wider wheels? I would hate to see how the 930 does on just a 245 (the widest tires i have right now.. ).

[Garen]

Actually, a set of "proper" Fuchs (16x9 & 16x7) can run up to $2000, so you might find that the cost of wider rims might not be that much more money. That's why I ended up with the CCW's. At around $2000 new, they were a bargain compared to used Fuchs, new Fikse/BBS/Kinesis/HRE/etc.

I think the late offset wheels will need big spacers. The 930 and the early 951 ('86) have the same offset, IIRC. maybe the fronts only, but the rears will need big spacers.