ethanol with 911sc--update

hytem · 07-14-2006, 06:11 AM

I posted a while back inquiring about the effect of 10% ethanol
on the 911SC, and would like to update.

I see no effect after a couple of tankfuls of the 10% ethanol gas
in my '82, though I've had to adjust the idle mixture for lack of a warm-up regulator. Cold starting is a bit rough, but warm starting and idle are fine. Mileage about 20 mpg in mixed driving.

I also noticed in Streather's Book , "911SC: The Essential Companion", p.330:

" It was not until LeMans 1980 that a CIS equipped 911SC was entered by a private team.
This 911SC ran on ethanol. This new fuel worked well because the team won their class after 24 hours of trouble-free racing."

Don't know what the ethanol mix was, but it sounds encouraging.

VaSteve · 07-14-2006, 06:21 AM

What did you do to your mix and what part of the country are you in? I have put about 3 tanks of ethanol gas in my car since they put it out. I was driving it hard last weekend and experienced a slight ping or knock on hard accelleration (4K- 5k or so). I have been told to adjust mix, retard timing, and possibly change the fuel filter. None of which I have done because I haven't driven it since.

holtjv · 07-14-2006, 06:24 AM

hytem: what's the ROI on it? I mean the cost differential between buying the gas and the mileage difference. thanks. Jack

hytem · 06:34 AM

leaned out the mix slightly--but probably not due to the ethanol. My mechanic is trying to compensate for the lack of a warm-up regulator--balancing cold vs warm starting. Seems OK for cold starting in spring/summer weather (Delaware), but don't know about winter weather.
I use the first couple of gears at 4000 rpm when warm, and haven't noticed any pings.

I have no idea what the gas mileage effect is with ethanol.
It's probably not as great as the type of driving you do. 20 mpg
is probably average for average driving this type of car.

Zeke · 06:49 AM

I have doubts about the accuracy of the book quoted as almost all racing fuels of the category are methanol. I could be dead wrong, but in 1980 there was no point in using ethanol over the petroleum or wood based version of alcohol. It will run leaner because it's specific gravity is heavier. Beyond that, I'll let the chemists explain.

The ethanol issues reported here have to do with deteriorating and corrosive properties of alcohol. In my racing experiences, we always had to run gas thru an alcohol system before going home or else the stuff would eat everything alive if it wasn't flushed out completely.

Joeaksa · 07-14-2006, 07:31 AM

My concern would be long term, something that would not bother a race car as they are overhauled/refurbed after each race.

mb911 · mb911's Garage

All I can say is all my p-cars have always run on 90-10 and have had no problems related to fuel except the ocasional bad tank of fuel with to much water.

Bill in OKC · 07-14-2006, 10:04 AM

The Car and Driver that I bought at the airport yesterday (July 2006) has an article on ethanol. It says that the mandatory ethanol mix is only 5% by 2012 and all cars should burn it without problems. Gasohol, which is up to 10% ethanol has already been in use for 30 years in farm states. It says the biggest change needed for E85 is replacing the gas tank with stainless steel and replacing rubber fuel lines with teflon lined fuel lines. From the article it sounds like there shouldn't be any problems for a long time.

MotoSook · 10:25 AM

Been running "This gasoline may contain up to 10% ethanol" in my cars and motorcycles for years. It's what we have available in the midwest.

Your CIS problems are not related to the ethanol. If you had to lean it out recently, it has more to do with the ambient conditions than the fuel.

Ethanol in the gasoline will tend to raise the octane so you can't blame it for any knocking you are experiencing during the warm months....key words, warm month.

You might get reduced mileage with the "up to 10%" due to a reduced energy content of the fuel...but it's probably a very small number and hardly worth driving from one gas station to the next to look for all gasoline fuel.

Edit: As I was waiting for my coffee to finish brewing this morning, I flipped throught the Excellence mag that arrived last night. I believe there is an article in there about alcohol in the gasoline for our old cars.

Won · 07-14-2006, 04:34 PM

How do you get 20 MPG?

I've been alternating between "up to 10% ethanol" fuel and gasoline for a few tanks each and I can't tell any difference between the two. Here 10% ethanol "90" octane costs the same as regular 87 octane, so I *think* I'm saving some money too.

hytem · 07-15-2006, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Won
How do you get 20 MPG?

I've been alternating between "up to 10% ethanol" fuel and gasoline for a few tanks each and I can't tell any difference between the two. Here 10% ethanol "90" octane costs the same as regular 87 octane, so I *think* I'm saving some money too.

I don't have a whole lot of mileage data yet, but you have to mix some highway driving in 5th gear to get the mileage up to around 20. That's going 55-65 mph. These cars quiet down and smooth out at 60-65, much like my old 300Z. I push a bit in the low gears
to use the engine, since I drive about once a week. That will take away some mileage, but is necessary. I'm told, for this type of car.

Looks like 10% ethanol is mandatory in most northeast states now. The price in your local station seems to be hard-wired to oil futures daily--wonder how they do that--so you can't tell if you're paying more. I hiccuped the other day, and the oil futures price went up. How did they know (LOL)?

plain fan · 07-15-2006, 09:54 AM

Bill in Okc, shoot me a pm sometime, I'm in OKC as well.
Grady

Paulporsche · 07-15-2006, 12:06 PM

We've had up to 10% ethanol in Sunoco 94 here for years, which I use for my higher compression engine. It's probably been 15 yr or so by now, and AFAIK I haven't had any fuel related problems.

David · David's Garage

I'm not really concerned with the ethanol when the car's running, it's when it's sitting in the garage for an extended period that concerns me.

zzwhm · 07-16-2006, 09:32 PM

I drove my Yukon (tow vehicle for the race car) from Ft Worth to San Antonio yesterday morning on fuel with 10% ethanol then filled up with gas sans ethanol and drove back last night. Had some fun in between. I set the cruise on 75 each way. With ethanol I got 17.1 MPG but without ethanol I got 19.6.

So I'm paying the same price for fuel but have to buy nearly 15% more to go the same distance. This can't be a good thing.

MotoSook · 03:31 AM

Same price!? I would have thought that stations offering all gasoline would charge more than those selling "with up to 10%." Obviously if you have the convenient option of all gasoline, you'd want to go that route. Those of us in the Midwest would have to drive some distance to find 100% gasoline.

I find it silly that gasoline is sold by volume as oppose to being sold by energy units. I suppose it would be difficult to have a gas analyzer at every pump to determine composition and energy content...but as fuel grade varies and prices climb.....maybe they should start to sell by energy content. Then again, "the man" will use the cost of equipment and resource needed to determine energy content as another reason to jack up the price of fuel (which happens when ever someone farts in the Mid East and scares the market). Damn the man!

hytem · 07-17-2006, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by zzwhm
So I'm paying the same price for fuel but have to buy nearly 15% more to go the same distance. This can't be a good thing. [/B]

If that's true for all cars, it means increased gas consumption which kills any oil savings with ethanol replacement. That's the government at work again. Wait 'till the ice caps melt.

GothingNC · 07-18-2006, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hytem
If that's true for all cars, it means increased gas consumption which kills any oil savings with ethanol replacement. That's the government at work again. Wait 'till the ice caps melt.

China will take care of the ice caps for us.

Heard on CNN last night that the increase Carbon Dioxide and greenhouse gases due to coal being burned by China within the next couple of years will be equivilent to 5 Billion Ford Expeditions driving 15,000 miles a year

Paulporsche · 07-18-2006, 05:45 AM

China is missing a golden opportunity by not investing in, mandating, or otherwise developing alternative fuel sources and systems. Instead of being just one more huge consumer of existing supplies and possibly the greatest polluter, it could be a technological leader, with lessened dependance on foreign supplies.

hytem · 07-18-2006, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GothingNC
China will take care of the ice caps for us.

Heard on CNN last night that the increase Carbon Dioxide and greenhouse gases due to coal being burned by China within the next couple of years will be equivilent to 5 Billion Ford Expeditions driving 15,000 miles a year

China generates about .5 tons of carbon per capita, while the U.S. generates 5.5 tons per capita--about 10 times more. The U.S. is the world's biggest polluter right now, in spite of having the best emissions laws--dating back to the 1970s oil crunch days. So much for the media generating a clear picture of the situation.

The Chinese government wants electric cars in China--I understand GM is or was building one for them. Panorama says China will sell an electric car in the U.S. next year for $13.8K.I also read GM destroyed their fleet of test electric cars in California in 2001--much to the dismay of the people driving them.

As for industrial (coal-driven) pollution, China and India are a big problem because of older technologies--they will need help from the developed nations to reduce emissions in the future,probably in the form of higher prices for their exports.

It's all political until the crap hits the fan. Then the politicians will get going--hopefully before it's too late.