upgrading 930 need advice!
 

hey guys, new here and want to say Hi. I have been putting this off for months and finally getting around to doing this. I have a 1987 porsche 911 turbo that I will be upgrading. Heres a list of everything im doing for track/street car:

efi conversion with wideband o2
full bay intercooler
carrera intake manifold & heads
twin plugging
msd ignition
3.4 cylinder & piston upgrade
carrillo rods and arp rod bolts
tial wastegate and blow off valve
1.1 bar of boost
gt evo II cams
methanol injection system
regeared 4 speed transmission
schnell headers
fabspeed dual exhaust
garret gt turbo
114 leaded octane when at track

is there anything else I can do? I was told that the carrera intake manifold can allow flow up to 630 horsepower. I want more than that. When I have the engine torn down what else is there to do? thanks

btw my goal is 700+ rwhp

if the car is going see much track time, you're going to be wanting another gear or two when it comes to keeping the turbo in the sweet zone if you stick to the 4 speed.

What about suspension? If you are going to track the car and want to run coil-overs, make sure you beef-up the shock mounts, and also make sure you upgrade the rear anti-roll bar mounts to WEVO units. You WILL break the stock ones... Also, research on this board and rennlist will yield you better solutions as to what headers/exhaust, and manifolds to run. The schnell, B&B and GHL headers probably won't be able to support the HP levels you are seeking. Bob Holcomb or Marco Manzie headers will be better suited I think.

When you upgrade to a decent stand-alone EFI computer like the Link, MoTeC, etc, you have the option of individual cylinder ignition coils, so the MSD may be unneccessary.

Do a search on this and rennlist, and check out project cars by Eric Hood (stroker racing??), Don E, Schokm, anything by Imagine Auto, etc.

Methanol as fuel, or just as an added spray like water injection?

And yes, the 4 speed may be a bit off-gear compared to newer 5 & 6 speeds, but with 700HP, you can probably manage better.

Anyway, hopefully the experts will chime in with their thoughts, and good luck.

Garen, 87 930

thanks, I have heard of bob holcomb, does he have a site? thanks

also whats the ideal transmission to run? a g-50 tranny?

Welcome to board.

Your project sounds a bit like mine.

Are you doing the work yourself?

In case you haven't been there, there's a pretty good turbo group on Rennlist.

1.1 bar at the track.......:rolleyes:
No. Not even with EFI.

why is 1.1 bar of boost too much? I'm assuming your not building the motor and this is why. Many cars run more boost than 1 bar, my old srt-4 ran over 1 bar stock. Just upgrading the fuel system/safc and turbo/exhaust/ic and you can push 2 bar on a stock engine. I know there are alot of factors that come into play please explain I'm somewhat new to the porsche engine/engine management

"Not building the motor"? I don't build motors.

Clearly you don't know about 930 turbos. Hell buy a 930, slap a 1.1 bar spring on it and let us know how it works out for ya.

Look around on the Rennlist 930 forum and you'll see why even with EFI, 1.1 bar on a *tracked* 930 engine is absolutely NOT a good idea.
You'll get phenomenal amounts of HP with .9 bar.

Why not? We run 1.2 and 1.4 bar at track w/o problems on a 3.6TT engine. It does have flameringed heads but we never had problems with blow-by.

Re: upgrading 930 need advice!
 

It's a sound build sheet but I would remove methanol injection. All auxillary injection system are regarded as a band-aid and shouldn't be used at track...merely at a drag strip. If you map your engine to actually take advantage of methanol injection, it will knock itself to death when methanol tank runs dry on a track. If you map it so it survives in case of unfortunate event of dry tank, you won't have any use of it.

So methanol has to go.

Also being a single turbo system, you'll need pretty big turbo to achieve 700hp. Turbo that big will be somewhat lazy.

I recomend binning 700hp and methanol plans. If 700hp is important then warmed over 3.3 isn't good choice to begin with. I would sell it and do a TT-conversion of 3.6 plant. 700hp on 3.3 engine is achievable but not cost-effective.

If you really want to keep 3.3 I recomend using following build sheet:

- 3.2 heads (3.3 has small ports, won't scale well with HP)
- keep the cylinders stock (increase to 3.4 won't give you much and costs a lot).
- JE pistons (instead of buying 3.4 P&C's)
- Garett GT35BB turbocharger.
- Custom made headers.
- Keep the OEM wastegate, it's better than Tial.
- BOV won't give you more power so you can use any BOV you want.

That would give you relativly fuss-free 600hp in track tune.

More than that and it will become unreliable money-pit.

If you need more than that, I recomend selling 3.3 engine alltoghether, finding N/A 3.6 engine and doing a TT conversion with twin GT30BB's. It already has twin plugs, heads with big ports etc. It's much cheaper to extract that kind of power from such engine (relativly, nothing is cheap when you talk 700hp).



So to round it off:

1. 3.3 engine is quite a bad design to go hunting big hp numbbers. It has small intake/exhaust ports, bad cams, single plug heads etc. Redoing everything to suit big numbers costs a lot.

2. Methanol/water/whatever injection sounds cool when read in import drag-race magazines but is nothing to be used on track, for reasons mentioned above.

3. Spending $$$ on 3.4 conversion on 3.3 car is waste of money. 0.1L increase can be eaten up by raising boost 0.05 bar of boost or so.

4. If big horsepower is important, 3.6 engines are much much better material to work with as most of "problems" (displacement, twin plugs, big ports) are already ironed out.

5. More than 1 bar on track would mandate flame-ringed heads and better head studs, but is possible.

In my book, 500hp is break-even point where fiddling with 3.3/3.2 engines isn't worth it unless you have access to lot's of parts and good engineering facilities.

About gearbox: 930 gearbox will certainly stand the torque. It's gearing vs. track work will depend on amount of turbo lag which itself will depend on which engine design you opted for.

With other words, it's entirely possible to see scenario where you actually achieved 700hp from a 3.3 with huge turbo (after throwing heaps on money into it) just to see the car being overtaken on track by a bloke with less HP but smaller (and thus more responsive) turbochargers.


So you either keep your 3.3 and just do as good buildup as possible w/o hunting bragging rights HP-figures or go 3.6 route.


Cheers!

Ran 1.1 to 1.2 bar of boost on my twin turbo motor .. never DNF'd .. track records, PCA wins... kicked just about everyones butt... 1.1 bar is nothing.

I have done all of this before...and I was successfull . If you want my take I am happy to share my info with you . Just PM me.

I don't see a problem with 1.1 boost running 114 race gas. On pump gas no, but with race fuel I don't see a problem.

You should have different fuel and ignition maps for pump and race gas.

I would do the flame rings on head/cylinder surface. I didn't and I'm worried I'll regret it.

If you haven't already, you'll also probably want to install larger piston squirters.

You should consider additional cooling with a front mount oil cooler.

I'm in the middle of a build myself with:
-964 cams
-Autronic SM4 fuel and (twin) spark
-3.4 Mahle P&C's
-Extrude Hone'd heads, inlet and exhaust turbo housings, inlet pipe and intake manifold.
-ARP studs
-B&B front mount oil cooler and I/C
-5 way grind
-72# Siemens injectors
-K27HFS

7.0 to 7.5 compression ratio if you're going for 1.1 to 1.2 boost levels.

the methanol is some good stuff

It is , if you are into Funny Car dragracing.

For road-going car, no. It requires special fuel piping, it will dilute your engine oil, it will require frequent rebuilds and you'll need to carry much bigger fuel tank as energy content per liter is low. I also wonder of it's permitted at all.

As I see it, methanol injection is pipe dream that is totally out of place on a track car.

It sounds good when you read about it but complexity vs. usability ratio is very high.

I would rather have usable and dependable turbocharged engine that doesn't require constant rebuilds and tweaking.


BTW, we run 1.2 bar of boost on Euro pump gas, (V-Power, 99 octane RON) and 7.5:1 C/R. No problems with detonation. Twin plugs and MBE aftermarket ECU.

My build is quite similar. I have Motec, and a 3.6 crank to go with the 3.4 Ps&Cs. No MSD (don't need it with a box like Motec). No methanol. G50 5-speed with Wevo short shifter.

512 to the wheels at 1.0 bar. To get to 700, as somebody has said, would require a much bigger turbo in a single-turbo 3.3 app, and that would be too laggy, in my opinion.

Engine built by Bob Holcombe. To my knowledge, he doesn't have a website. Kind of an old-style guy in some ways. He uses Motecs now, though, instead of the old Zytec.

Bob Holcomb has been around for a long time. Used to build Martin Snow's motors . Martin was the 'King of the Hill" back in 1992-1994 in POC and PCA club racing before he went pro...used to do 1:22's at Willow Springs.. some of us are under 1:20's there now but at the time a 1:22 was untouchable, and pretty much still is for most.. zytec motor...and Bob used to build his own throttle bodies..we actually have one of his old zytec motors on the shelf.

Some ran the 935s boost levels of about 1.7-1.8 for sprint races:) 1.2-1.4 for endurance races... unreal! I know I will never turn mine up more than 1.4 . At 1.2 and 7500 my engine builder says the motor will last forever .. fffoooorrrreeevvvverrrr.. I plan on holding him to that !

beepbeep: - Keep the OEM wastegate, it's better than Tial.

With most people going to Tial over the stock wastegate why do you prefer the stock one.

It's big, high quality, rebuildable and free ;-)

I thought you couldn't get new diaphragms for the stock wastegate.

thanks guys for all the info, bruce, how much more hp do you think your getting from the 3.6 crank and 3.4 p/c? Im not sure if going up .1 liters will help that much in horsepower for $3500.

Don't know about horsepower--probably just a little. But Holcombe seemed to think it did good things for off boost response at low rpms. I didn't have much to compare it to, but he did.

I did it because we had to split the case anyway because my crank needed replacement. Not sure it would be worth it if that's not where you are.

There is an outfit that makes them (at least they had them in 8/02).

Image Auto, Inc. 913-310-9927

What beepbeep said with a few more suggestions, I am nearing the end of a similar build shown below, bin the schnell headers if you can, since I already had the B&B Marco's or Holcombe's headers did not make it on there, don't waste your money on a G50/50 conversion as I did all told $13,258.60 for the trans and hardware alone from Patrick Motorsports, no clutch yet.
The guys that are making really big hp on this forum Mark Shock, David Knebes and a bunch of others out there that may choose to remain un-named but have communicated the details of their various builds to me both here and on Rennlist (do a search) Derek Cooper (Imagine Auto built), two of the three mentioned use a ball bearing turbo with great results. I think you will find that gearing and suspension is where you will find you biggest gains not 700hp(I hope this is a flywheel number) for the money go buy yourself someone else's completed build or a new GT3. I started with a $40K low mileage 930 outfitted it with all the usual upgrades and a McIntosh sound system (my car is for fun not a track rat or daily driver, leisure only) and so far into this build I am over 40k since Feburary and not done yet. I had a thing for the original 935 race cars so I had my heart set on building a single turbo monster. Would I do it again? probably but unlikely.



Project Type 930

Engine
Stock crank, case, oil pump, etc.
Case boat tailed
Pauter rods
3.4L 7.5:1 pistons
Cylinders and heads Nirostat fire rings
930 heads ported with stock valve sizes, but smaller 993 valve stem diameter on inlet valve
Valves to be back cut for flow improvements
Twin plug with Bosch silver plugs W4CS
Imagine auto valve springs and titanium retainers
GT2 Evo custom grind cams
Carrera 3.2 liter intake manifold
Stock fuel rails, regulator, damper, etc, stock fuel pressure
Siemens 80lb/hr injectors
Full bay intercooler (AC Retained 993tt condenser) I still need an Intercooler
B&B Headers (retained)
Fabspeed Dual out exhaust
Imagine Auto’s HF2 Turbo
Tial BOV, Wastegate
MoTeC M600
M & W double ended coil
M & W CDI controller
HKS EVC 5 boost controller

Transmission

G50/50 Patrick Motorsports with Guard Chromoly LSD

Suspension

I currently have upgraded torsion bars and custom valved Bilsteins. I will consider any recommendations for street with mild track applications?

Braking and Running Gear

The car presently has Big Reds all around and 17” Ruf classics (17x8.5 and 17x 10 with Michelin Pilot Sport Cups).

On second thoughts just buy Bruce's car.

I have a 1994 3.6 Turbo motor that was built by Paul Schwartz. It has Pauter rods, all the happy bolts retainers and hardware, 54mm intake valves (instead of the stock 49mm ones), twin plugged heads, happy cams blah blah blah...., not sure if it is 38. or 3.6 displacement. I bought the longblock from the guy who in the middle of switching to motec switched to a totally different race class instead. Others bought the intake and exhaust, I bought the everything else. Not sure what to do. Had it a few years and haven't started buying parts yet. Not a good time financially for a big committment. Any inexpensive suggestions? I would also consider selling it.
Thanks,

Vince
vince@gtmotorsports.us

Don't forget to upgrade the clutch.

Craig I meant no disrespect and I'm sorry you took me the wrong way. I admitted I'm new to Porsche engines and just wanted a little info since you obviously track yours and have a vast amount of knowledge of the 930 and 930 turbo. It just doesn't seem like that much boost. Yes you get enough power but why can't you run more boost? What is the deal i'm assuming the stock engine can't handle that much boost? Yes there is such thing as too much power but what does 1.1 bar and supporting mods give you 400whp-500whp? What are the weak points of the engine if any?

There is more to the story.
You can't run 1.1bar of boost on the track IF YOUR FUEL AND IGNITION SYSTEMS ARE NOT UP TO THE TASK. You cannot allow the fuel curve to lean out at any point and you cannot allow detonation at any point.
Reliability and longevity always suffer with more boost. You have to establish the level you are willing to accept.
If your motor unexpectedly blows up on the track you don't know everything about engines, your still learning.

I haven't seen any mention of cost in this thread. Are all 930 owners rich (in which case I missed my share) or does the car take first precedence for money?

Schnele--

This is priceless:

"Would I do it again? probably but unlikely."

That perfectly sums up this sort of obsession.

I'm in exactly the same camp :)

I've got a friend at work with a 996. When I see him, his first question is "are you finished yet?" The next comment is: " you know you could buy a 996 for what you have in the 930." I tell him he doesn't get it. He didn't get a ride in it before the rebuild, so he'll be extra surprised when he does get a ride. There's just no way to adequetely describe the feeling when the boost comes on in heavily modded single turbo 930.

hey guys, Im running the methanol with water, a 50/50 mix. I found out today my case had been blow up before! A rod went through it and whoever messed with it last put all the peices back with jb weld. We also found out my engine was being held by one bolt and my headers were so loose you could pull them apart with your hands. Im happy I'm doing this work to the car. Everyday after work I go by and see him and he shows me the progress. It feels alot better to just drop the car off and come back a few weeks later. Someone suggested upgrading the clutch, I found a clutch on ebay item number 280015472003 that looks to be a good upgrade. Im trying to cut down a little on expenses as I have already hit the $15k mark. Anyone had experience with this clutch? I will let you guys know how things are going.

The description sounds good, but I thought the Spec Stage 1 was not a real high horsepower/torque app, and that the Stage 3 is what you need at the hp levels you want. Especially if you really want 700hp to the ground....

Dunno, though. No direct experience with Spec. My clutch is a 935 clutch. Hard to modulate and pretty stiff, but holds like a mother...

ditto on the oem clutches for reliability
I have an rsr clutch package in mine
probably the only mod I where I would opt to go a little more conservative

930zx -

Sounds like a great car in the works.

No experience with the methanol but personally I think it's overkill. Unless you're going for absolute HP or bragging rights, and not drivability on street or track of course.

Schnele said it well. The gearing and suspension are crucial to applying all that HP. Anything +/- 500 hp on these 2WD, non-PASM, non-ABS, non-anything cars is a handful. A terrifically FUN handful but something to respect.

Mine is somewhat similar, but twin turbo, twin plug, twin MSD's, flame ringed, pauter rods, Ti spring retainers, blah blah EFI, G50/50, revalved RSR coil overs, big reds, reinforced ARB mounts, ERP rear spring plate, monoballs ..... built to handle 1.4, but I max it at 1.25 on the track with race gas.

It's running extra rich/fat for safety and financial reasons (not wanting to melt things) so it's only doing 485 rw, probably ~570 crank. I could get an optimal AFR ratio for even more HP, but really why.

The taller-geared G50/50 5-sp works really well on bigger tracks (Watkins Glen). If I were only going to track it I might get closer ratio gears, but I play with mine on the street as well.

Oh, I have my slightly used 935 clutch and Protomotive TOB, if you want to keep costs down. Email me if interested. It grabs and holds like a mutha but works well with high HP. I went with a Sachs sport clutch for better user interface and have been quite pleased (no slipping either).

Good luck with yours!

Glenn
glenn@executive-focus.com