+1

For front end aero treatments, you might try experimenting with different winglet configurations ala DTM/LMP cars. Here are a few examples to offer inspiration:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1157847660.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1157847693.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1157847716.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1157847736.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1157847748.jpg

SmileWavy

I'm in "day 2" of construction...here are my notes so far:
I'm using a little heavier gauge alu for the ribs...1.6MM. I alternated the tabs. I clamped all 7 ribs together and ised a jigsaw to cut all the tabs and beam slots identically.

I am using "U" shaped extrusions for the top and bottom braces. When I brace them together I am thinking I'll get some additional torsional rigidity.

I've got 2 of the ribs done up...another 5 to go...

So Jack are you looking to make a career change?
Writing isn't enough, so you're becoming a fabricator?

Great wing! I hope it worked out well for you at the track!

So how did the wing do? Did it stay in one piece (actualy two pieces ;) )?

I'm working on a longer write-up while I wait for pictures in the mail. But the short answer is that the wing worked great, and held up to the stress without problems. The base distorted and compressed a little (which hadn't happened with 250 pounds of sand -- which means the thing was doing some serious work). But I reinforced the base after a quick Home Depot visit, and it worked well the rest of the weekend.

Awesome Jack! I have the entire internals done and braced now and will start on the skin this weekend.

Did you get any distortion around the skin where it mounts to the ribs? I thought I'd get a smoother, more consistant shape and have more surface area to bond the skin if I first ran a strip of sheeting around each rib (and possibly add a rivet or two in addition to the bonding) before mounting the final external skin. What do you think?

Oh, and any lap time conparisons?

I didn't add anything in between the ribs and the skin, with the exception of the anchor pieces (the ribs with the 'feet' that mount to the uprights), where I added a piece to keep the piece from cutting through the skin like a knife.

I found that I got a less consitent shape when I tried alternating the tabs (when I built my second wing). If you've got a similar situation, then adhering a strip that's a little wider than the width of the spread tabs might make a smoother surface.

How about some pictures? I'm curious to see how someone else would do a project I jumped into with so little experience.

I thought about them, but couldn't come up with a way to mount them without putting holes in visible places on the car.

The splitter and the wing -- with a very trusting passenger:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1158206345.jpg

Here's a report on the day, with good news and bad.

The bad:

- I left my camera bag at home by accident. I'd wanted to shoot footage of the wing at speed in order to see evidence of vibration or stress and where it was located. I had the camera set up to shoot straight ahead, but the one that would have shot the wing itself was home on the kitchen table. :( As a result, I don't have footage of the wing at work.

- Based on my initial 250# sandbag tests, I changed the rear mounting piece where the upright attaches to the tail. My new piece was thinner, but it had better lateral support. I tested it twice in a straight line with no one around me up to 135 mph twice, and everything looked fine. But on the first session out, the new pieces (which had a bend in them to keep the uprights parallel) started to bend further and flex down, in spite of a horizontal support between them that was supposed to keep that from happening. I spotted this after the first session and added some extra long bolt bridges to further triangulate the areas under stress. It worked all right, but I also damaged the wing while doing the repair -- I twisted the wing to move the uprights over for space to drill, and the short rear connector tube tore loose from its rib.

The track photographer got some pictures when I was giving Pelicanite bynbad914 (Tim) a ride. There's some interesting stuff in the pictures, where the speeds are about 120 mph.

In the first picture, you can see some burping distortion in the fiberglass hood. You can also see where the unsupported corner sections of the splitter appear to be bending down. You can also see the joining point in the center of the wing, where the part I damaged is causing uneven mating surfaces. (It's easier to see in a higher-resolution version of the photograph.)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1158206390.jpg

In the second, slightly faster picture, you can see the front splitter bending down between the supports that run up to the bumper. You can also see the problems caused by the flexing base pieces below the uprights. The wing wasn't being held up equally on both sides, so it's twisting, slightly, in this picture.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1158206413.jpg

At the end of the first day, I went to the local Home Depot and got the hardware to make spacers to simply replace the point where the metal bent. I also got some JB Weld to fix (somewhat) the damaged rear connecting tubes so the two halves of the wing would mate more evenly.

It was after dinner when I got the time to do the repairs, so I took the parts inside. I've never hammered and drilled in a hotel room before, and I was a little worried that I was going to get complaints from the neighbors. My approach was to turn on some TV programming (a Korean talent show) and the shower at the same time, and just hope that I was creating enough of a distraction to drill two quick holes and flatten out some steel. It only took a couple of minutes, but I felt like I was in a breaking-out-of-prison movie where I was going to be caught at any point.

The new base was heavier, but it held up fine all day on Sunday. Unfortunately, I don't have any high-speed pictures from the second day.

In any case, I'm seeing what parts of the wing and assembly should be made more sturdy in iteration 1.1 of the wing.

The good:

The wing itself showed no sign of stress, and I couldn't hear or feel any evidence of flutter at speed on the freeway or the track. From what I can see so far, it held up fine. When I do build version 1.1, I'll do an 'autopsy' on this one. But from everything I can see, it is plenty strong enough -- at least before time and fatigue start to reveal themselves. There were gusty wind warnings for Saturday afternoon, and there were still no signs of trouble with the wing.

Running without the wing, my best time was a 1:33.4. Running with the wing, my best time was a 1:30.4. The difference in driving was very noticeable. I'll see more clearly when I look at sector times in the data logger, but the comfort level through turn 1 (a 90-degree left), turn 2 (a 95-mph sweeper) and turn 8 (a 130-mph sweeper) were immediately noticeable from the first time I went out. With the wing, I was carrying about 200 more rpms through turn 2, flat on the gas through the entry and the exit, with far fewer corrections. In turn 8, where I wasn't brave enough to study the tach, the car was so well planted that I could go through it flat even on the first lap of a session when the tires weren't up to temp.

My top speed during a lap with the wing was 129.62. My top speed during a lap with the ducktail was 130.79. Both times were at the end of the front straight. This may not mark the full extent of the price of the additional drag, though, since I was probably entering the straight with more speed with the big wing, but still reaching a lower top speed before the braking zone for turn 1. When I go through the data, I'll try and pick a fixed exit point for turn 9 and see what the difference is from the finish speed in both configurations.

It's interesting to compare these times to the last time I was at Willow with the shorter wing. On the same tires and at the same track, the best I could do then was a 1:37 with no aero and a 1:33 with the wing and splitter. The tires I'm running are a full size down from my normal sizes. But they're Toyo Proxes RA1's, which have a long lifespan and should be good for this kind of testing. However, they're known to continue to get better as they heat cycle, which is part of the explanation for the improved times. I was also able to run race gas this time, which allows me to run a different programming map for my car's computer (I have a switch and a 'two chips in one' No Bad Days chip). Track surface conditions and driver inconsistency are also factors, I'm sure.

It's certainly all within my testing's margin of error, but there was a 4-second difference previously, and only a 3-second difference this time. Now, that could easily be misleading, since the track loses 1-2 seconds during the day because of accumulated heat and coolant/oil/tire rubber. But it could be that with my limited power that I've reached a point of diminishing returns with drag and downforce at the new wing size. It makes me want to test multiple wing sizes on the same day -- maybe make a 60-inch one, next, or another 70-inch wing but with a reduced chord length.

In terms of F/R balance, the car felt great, although there was some push to it. I'm thinking as a next step that the front splitter stays the same and maybe the wing gets reduced in size.

I also did some looking underneath cars and diffuser designs. There were two of the new Ford GT's at the event, but I didn't get a chance to look at their underbody stuff at all. I looked at some of the Vipers and the new Corvettes, but the most complete-looking package was on the Lotus Exige. I took some measurements with it of the height at the front axle down to the point where it changes its angle, about a foot ahead of the rear axle, and then where it angles up to the diffuser. One of these days, I'm going to take another stab at some underbody pieces.

One more picture:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1158190070.jpg

It almost looks like the wing is doing too good a job there, doesn't it?

Well, to come right out of the box and make an improvement on an already proven wing is just outstanding! Things can only get better from this point forward at Olsen's WingWerks. You know what they say, Jack's just wingin' it.

Impressive work, Orville. Now get back in the shop and fix some bicycles. ;)

In all sincerity, it was quite a ride! Wow!

Continuing to amaze, Jack.


...but you do know how to deflate a guy! Actually you nailed it....I've successfully built a house, rebuilt a motorcycle, built a rock-crawler and launched a brokerage software company without prior experience or schooling in any of those. I believe I posess a unique mix of stupidity (didn't know it was that hard), humility (I ask lots of questions) patience and outstanding luck. And great, generous friends.

Notice I didn't list "successfully build a 911 race car." Its still a work in progress and with it in the suspension and paint shop, I'm crawling the walls. I need a project to work on and your writeup had impeccible timing!

I would post pics but I sacrificed it for some poontang. By that I mean I brought it to a wedding and got so blitzed and distracted by a bridesmaid that I left the camera. But I did score the bridesmaid.:p God I love being single again.

I will post pics soon. I think I will go ahead and run a layer of sheet alu around the ribs. It seems beyond my ability (patience) to be able to determine if all the rib "flaps" are parallel/square. My hypothesis is that with a strip around it I can use a level, string and square to get all the ribs uniform.

Thanks for posting the data. My 1.0 design is 60 inches since mine is a narrowbody and I need to stay within the width of the car. I haven't weighed it yet...I will likely outweigh your though due to some additional (possibly unnecessary by your experience!) bracing. Then again mine is 1-piece so maybe we'll be close...

Jack, if youre getting some aero push why wouldn't you stiffen the rear bar vs make the wing smaller. If I set my 911 neutral on the lower speed stuff its too tailhappy in the highspeed sweepers, or neutraul at high speed = push at low speed. A turbo tail helped but I haven't had a changce to try the 3.8RS wing (or a big high mount) yet. I always though the idea of aero was to be able to tune the high vs low speed settings differently (sort of like multi-way adjustable shocks w/ high and lo-speed rebound).

SMD

I'm not leaving the monitor until you do.........

Ha, That would be posted "Off Topic." She too was tail-happy. Or is that me?

You know Jack, people have set up complete meth labs in hotels, so I doubt some drilling would have been noticed :D Anyway, do you have any shots of the final mounting scheme with the spacers? Just interested to see how that all turned out.

BTW, I rode with Jack back in January when I had my car at the track and can say that his car is flying thru Turn 2 now by comparison. The car felt much better to me through there at least... and I think faster thru T8 as well. I really can't even begin to imagine how some of those cars turn 1:22-1:24s on that track.

Zach, no bridesmade pics but some other progress...
 

here's a series from the construction...

i added a base layer over the ribs for added surface layer/structural rigidity in the hopes of adding strength and saving some weight. But it certainly isnt as trick as Jack's 2-piecer.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1161002079.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1161002108.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1161002268.jpg

I used some rivets and aluminum-powder bonding material. Here I am using levels to check parallel and eliminate compounding error with the additional bonding layer.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1161002438.jpg

Sum more....http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1161003017.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1161003055.jpg


the last one is of what its going to replace...duck to come...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1161003364.jpg

Jack is a master, thanks for the inspiration!

Looks good. The U-shaped spar pieces will resist twist better than my T-shaped pieces.

It looks like yours is going to be a single piece? What's the total wing width/chord length and rib spacing?

The cord length should be exactly the same as yours, I used yours as a template. My spacings are around 10", the total width is 60" to fit within the narrow-body max-width requirements.

Yes, its 1-piece.

Do you still have yours on?

Any idea on where these would be available?

You might be using stronger materials than I did, so it might not be an issue. But with the aluminum skin I was using, I think 10" would have been too far apart. I had a rib every 5.5-6 inches. However it looks like your rib metal is a little thicker than mine, so your skin might be heavier gauge, too.

I'm still running mine every track day. Last Wednesday, I beat my previous record at my home track five times over (with narrower and less sticky tires than I'd set the previous best with), so I can't say that the wing is slowing me down. ;)

"Any idea on where these would be available?"

Armando,
Open up the pages of any sport compact magazine and you should find many canards in FG and CF from several manufacturers. The mounting contour might be different. Those exact ones in the photos are probably custom built.

Sherwooe

Thanks, I'll have to stop by a rice burner shop. I'll hide my face.

Sounds great on paper......
 

I thought I'd have a go at this too. Noting Jack's comment about the AL flashing being flimsy, I had an idea.

Fill the cavities of the wing with this expanding foam stuff. It shoots out as liquid, then foams up to several times the size. Sticky stuff, I it should help bond everything together making the glue less important.

And it cures to a styrofoam consistancy, providing support to the backside of the thin AL skin.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1161195794.jpg

You can see the core of the wing in the background.

Feeling proud of myself for coming up with a good solution that was a sure winner, I dutifully spent many hours cutting the ribs and other piece parts of the wing. Then several more hours gluing up the whole assembly. Then some more fitting the AL skin (not so easy to do, even the thin flashing material is difficult to get to conform fully).

I drilled holes in each cavity, then shot in the foam till it started oozing out. I was concerned that the pressure of the foam might split the wing, but it didn't.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1161196534.jpg

At this point I'm thinking "Awesome. I love it when a plan comes together".

Now it's just a matter of trimming the excess foam and go flying low to the ground.


Not so fast, flyboy.


After breaking off the beautifully-cured excess foam, I could see nothing but darkness in the fill holes.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1161196684.jpg

Probing into the holes, I found no foam - only gooey residue. The AL skin was unsupported. The foam did not cure properly inside the wing, only the stuff that oozed out into free air.

I think the contained foam takes longer to cure, and while it remains soft longer the bubbles are popping. The foam breaks down into its liquid state. At least that's what appears to have happened.

I've seen similar expanding foam used as packaging material. The foam is in a bag that would similarly contain it. Yet that stuff seems to cure just fine. However the packaging products I've seen require heating.

Maybe the heat accelerates the cure, and prevents the foam from breaking down? Maybe I can fill my wing with foam, then put in a warm place? Maybe there is another product that would work better?

Anyone with experience in this area?

there are things made with Al foam - it's pretty high tech stuff

there is also Al hex cel material

Back to the - ah - foam foam... did you use the slow set or the fast set type? if the slow, then the fast might work -- it WAS a good idea...

Chuck,

I'm not sure if that brand is similar to the other brands I've used. I wouldn't say the stuff comes out as liquid, more like compressed shaving foam if that makes sense. I've used three difference densities of the stuff extensively in all kinds of situations, including sealed cavities with only a drilled access hole, and the stuff's always worked well for me. If I was doing this, I'd probably have used it here too.

I can't remember the brand name, but it comes in three different colored cans--blue, red, and I think yellow or black--and is readily available in any building supply or hardware store like Home Depot, Osh, or whatever.

I would probably choose the lowest density foam, as I think its expansion rate is about 1:2. The 1:4 stuff will probably be too extreme and might damage the wing. The stuff has been known to deform door and window frames so I wouldn't trust it to be gentle enough here.

I have used "Great Stuff" foam inside wings on my FC and it worked fine. Good luck!

"Great Stuff!" That's the stuff I was talking about.

Thanks.

also -- maybe you can apply it as you go - so it would "get good air"

I think the expanding foams are moisture cure urethanes. They require moisture from the air to harden them. An AL cavity isnt permeable to air. Maybe drill another hole(s)? Squirt in a small amount of water?

I dont think your foam is broken down, just uncured. Like the state it resides in while in the can.

SMD

When I said "broken down" I meant the bubbles that make the foam had popped, leaving nothing but liqiud. Yes it is certainly uncured.

But in the can I think it is actually 2 parts. They are now mixed and inside my wing, however still liquid.

Chuck,
http://greatstuff.dow.com/greatstuff/cons/howto.htm
Says to spray w/ water between passes in deeper cavities. Definately a moisture cure. The propellant "foams" it on the way out. It didn't cure fast enough in your case and resettled.

MSDS:
http://www.dow.com/PublishedLiterature/dh_02dd/09002f13802ddaf4.pdf?filepath=pusystems/pdfs/noreg/741-62847.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

Polymethylene polyphenyl isocyanate needs water to react w/ the prepolymer.

FWIW, I dont see how you could deliver a 2-part resin/hardner out of one can (that isnt a moisture/air cure). All two part resins we use are in parallel tubes w/ a mixing tip/straw. Those will definately cure in a sealed cavity. I guess the door foams are technically 3-part (w/ the missing water being the 3rd)

It looks like acetone will disolve the uncured stuff. You might be able to wash the old stuff out and try again. THough, Id be temped to buy a two part external mix and figure out how to pour/squirt it in before it foamed. I think some of the styrenes will do that.

SMD

Great stuff will work, I have used it in similar applications.

Perhaps you could spray a mist of water...or steam...just a little in there before foaming, and foam in "lifts". A little at a time, in two passes? Also, choose the low build stiff, as you might find the high build stuff distorts the al skin.

In any case, I would experiment first with a mock up.

Hey Chuck, you sure you didn't read that idea before...early on in the thread, search on the word "foam" :p

I'm surprised to see it didn't work...i bet there is another formula that would work...or if it was baked or warmed while curing...

More about your construction...what bonding material did you use?

I wonder...
 

With Porshes body alreay created for aerodynamics, is a wing like that any more beneficial than a tea tray type tail? Or is it better that the little wing on it already? just logical questions from me on that/

Besides those questions, quite an amazing job for sure!!

Read backt through this thread and all others by Jack Olsen concerning aero for your answer to that question. The "Search" feature and "wing" and/or "aero" and "jack Olsen" will give you answers that might surprise you.

JohnJL, great minds think alike ;)

Unfortunately we don't always get the results planned :(

I'm going to try some different products.

Re: I wonder...
 

The Porsche body (especially the pre-1990 one) has good aero in the sense that it doesn't generate very much drag. But the same teardrop shape is pretty lousy in terms of generating lift. The ducktail/teatray/whaletail spoilers were there to interrupt airflow over the car (all of them except the ducktail also came with a penalty -- increased drag. But a true wing is much better in terms of both drag and its ability to create negative lift, which fights the 300# or so of positive lift that the basic body creates at 150 mph. Wing's aren't very practical on street-driven cars, but they've been a fairly common item on track Porsches for decades.