Torque VS HP Question

I'd like to start by saying that if I had been around when the all about Warren post began, I'd have posted that I was thinking Exactly the same things just a week ago....Who is this Clint Eastwood of Porsche fiends?
Thanks warren.
So a coworker picked up a new S2000 Honda...it spouts 240 horsies, however, it's maximum Torque is 153 or so.
However, according to the specs on my Carrera, it sports 207 hp and 215, or at least 180 (get different numbers) maximum Torque. Higher than 150 something, surely.
I don't understand how these vary, and which one means what.
And, can I take this guy 0 to 60 with 1/3 tank of gas, no spare, no tools in trunk?



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Kurt B
1984 911 Carrera Cabriolet
75 914 1.8

Kurt, I thought the 3.2's had 217 SAE net hp, and that the European models had 232, but it does become difficult to keep up with different versions and hp standards world wide!!!

Well, you know there used to be kind of an inside joke among some of the engineering/technical editors on a couple of car mags in the late '60's that the Japanese (JIS) standards for horsepower must have been based on minature horses or perhaps Shetland ponies ... and with all of the bucks at stake in the automotive market, I guess the Japanese mfrs have learned to 'stretch' the truth when it come to hp claims based on Madison Avenue (or wherever the hypesters of advertising hang out) values, and not engineering standards!

Porsche had a 2.0 liter racing engine in 1968-69 based on a 911 block and the twin-cam valve gear for the in-development 908 engine. It was called the 916 engine (no relation to the 914 derivative) and was used in racing on an experimental basis in 911R's, 906, and 907 models, but the race drivers HATED it, in spite of 230 DIN hp at 9000 rpm, because of an extremely narrow power band. So, I guess not all power increases are worth the torque-loss trade-offs!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

From some of the data I have read of Japanese engines, some for motorcycle engines, the specs always seems to show impressive HP but less impressive Torque. One for a late edition Superbike had a HP of 157 but a Torque less then 100, (Sorry I can't find the exact specs). Point is that a light bike doesn't need alot of torque. As far as the Honda car, the weight would play a factor. As far as if you can take him The 0 to 60 times are less then 6 seconds. Unless the driver is not experienced or you car is modified.....No.

[This message has been edited by 89911 (edited 05-17-2000).]

Kurt - Many people get confused with the HP vs torque issue. Without getting into the math, HP is torque output at a specific RPM. The HP figures for the S2000 bear this out, this motor is extremely high strung (9000 RPM redline) with a very narrow power band. The most important figure to gage real-world power and drivability is torque and the max RPM that it is produced. Your Carrera is able to put down the torque (power) at a much lower RPM than the Honda. In the real world this means that the S2000 has to have the **** reved out of it all the time to make it go. This would get real old real fast on the street. Low gears would be a must or the car would bog. If the driver hesitates for an instant at the light or the car comes out of the hole weak it will bog and you will smoke him bad. Weight is also an issue. The more torque you have at lower RPM the more forgiving the car will be when extra weight is added. I have never seen an S2000 but I bet if you ride in this car and run him the peaky power band will be exposed.

Thanks for the help guys. Right, I do understand the physics involved. But what I was looking for was the "what does it mean to how my car goes," information, and you provided it.

Well, I come from a motorcycle background.
I ride ( also with my 70' 911 T ) a 500cc single four stroke bike. The way I would phrase it, torque is power at low rpm and HP is power at the highest rpm. My little old bike will take any " superbike " at low speed ( just like a very rough mountain road ) but will be smoked dead on at the very first " straight " where a new bike will outpower me six time fold. It is the same with my humble 911 T : not much top speed for sure, not much 0-60 impressive numbers, but let's get in the mountains and I will show you my taillights...
The bottom line, in my case, unless you care only for top speed and magazine stats, you are better off with great torque instead of HP.....
What do you say?
( as a kid, I always remember the deep rough sound of a Porsche six flat coming out of a turn and going up in rpm until the very next braking !!! )
Torque = VW aircooled 4.
Power = 60'/70' Italian cars.
Thierry

Kurt

If you want to calculate the hp difference between your porsche and other vehicles you can use the following formula:

HP=Torque X RPM/5252
Torque=HP X 5252/RPM
RPM=HP X 525/Torque

With these formulas, you can make a comparison between any two vehicles to calculate their power requirements at any rpm.

As an example, if the S2000 Honda wants to deliver 240 HP, his engine needs to be revving at about 8238 rpm.

On the other hand, in order for your engine to produce 207 HP it only needs to do approximately 6039 rpm. So, as you can see, HP is relevant to rpm and torque and vice versa.

If the S2000 was reving at 6039, it would only produce 175 HP. So, as you can see this is probably why you beat him.

Regards

Steve

That very true but....are we assuming both the 911 and the Honda go through their powerband at the same speed. I know they don't. Knowing the HP they make at a certain RPM wouldn't be relevant in a race situation. The smaller, lighter S2000 motor (if launched correctly) will rev to its 9,000 redline almost as fast as the flat 6 reaches its 6,000 (approx.) redline. Man I hope I can explain this clearly.

Like someone said previously, HP is more your top end and torque your bottom end (there are exceptions, but we'll go with this right now) the Honda has to be kept revved out to feel its peppiness, but its got to be KEPT above VTEC which is around 5-6,000 rpm, or you'll feel like you've lost all power! relate that to gearing, it's a lot like downshifting from fifth to fourth to pass that semi on the road...that difference in gear ratios from 5th to 4th is a lot like whats happening within your engine (its a lot like making HP through the momentum of the motor)

Now torque, is strength. The seat-of-your-pants power. That will pull you out of the hole quicker than the torque-less Honda. When you first mash the pedal, torque is what gives that push, and the 911 has way more than the S2000. Torque is great for carving up canyons, HP is more for you drag racers out there (but a skilled S2000 driver can run a road race keeping the motor above its VTEC kick in)

Its a lot like comparing a Honda CBR to a Harley. A CBR will run circles around a Harley, but will you ever see a CBR pulling tree stumps? But, like the 911, and S2000, both the Harley and Honda bikes are great bikes, and have their own following. It really is a matter of preference. What ever floats your boat!

So to answer the original question: Who will win? The 911 or S2000. If it was a drag race, I'd say the S2000 (because you only launch once, from there its all top end) a road race would (if both cars were driven by experienced drivers) be a fun race to watch! Now, in the real world? Who would want to drive, from stop light to stop light with your motor constantly screaming at 8,000 RPM?

Oops! I somehow missed RarlyL8's post. Sorry for reiterating!


[This message has been edited by PorscheDV (edited 05-19-2000).]