"It's Official"

Well its official now. I'm looking at a total rebuild of my engine. I talked to my mechanic at length this morning about my situation and we both agreed that a total rebuild would be best considering the mileage and probable damage. He is, luckily, very understanding of my situation and dosen't have a problem with me dropping and tearing down the engine myself. He said "yeah, tear the hell out of it then bring it up to me and I'll help you put it back together". I think this is the best route I can take because it will definately save me some money in labor and more importantly it will give me some serious wrench time on my motor.

I figure now I will start gathering the stuff I will need to drop and disassemble the engine.
I will start with tools. I figure I will need to buy the odd allen head tools for removal of the heat exchangers and head studs as well as the flywheel lock and socket. I need to know what tools are needed to properly remove the cam/sprokets?
The same goes for the fuel injectors...
I will stop at Sears first, to see if they can help.
Next will be some of the items required in any rebuild. I have seen rebuild kits for sale which are supposed to include all gaskets and bearings needed. Vertex advertised one for about $700. Any body ever deal with this?
On top of that I figure I will need a set of Valve guides, head studs, rod bolts, flywheel bolts, a new timing chain and set of ramps as a minimum. My mechanic is worried that I might have a bit of damage to the head that broke the stud and it might require machining. And if that is the case than my cylinder might be trashed wich would demand a new set of pistons and cylinders (since the motor has 217,000 miles on it anyway)

What else am I forgetting?

Like I said, first stage will be the collection of required tools.

Then I will buy everything that I know for a fact will need replacing (gaskets bearings etc.)

And finally as I get into the engine and things become obvious that they need to be replaced I will buy those things at that time (burnt valves, pistons etc.).

Does my logic sound right?

I feel fairly comfortable with disassembly of the motor. As long as I have the right tools and you all here to help me along.

I'm sorry this was so long but I would appreciate and tips on what to buy and/or what to expect when I get into this.
Thanks,

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Leland Pate

___79 SC Targa

Your thinking is right on target, in my estimation. Right on target.

On the one hand, you could go in there and replace ONLY the bare minimum. One or two studs. Few gaskets. Then nolt it back together. But this is still a lot of work, you engine may have some damage already, and old parts get jealous of new parts, they fight, and you would continue to have issues.

With the engine out and apart, yes it costs money in parts and machining, but with the engine apart, this is a golden opportunity to replace worn parts and drive a fresh motor. Sorry, Leland, for your troubles and expense.

Here's another thought. If Porsche had not built a lightweight, air cooled, high performance (IMHO) motor that gets at least 1/4 million miles (unless studs break) and possibly more than a half-million miles before rebuild, engineers everywhere would laugh and declare it impossible. You're about to rebuild an engineering masterpiece, respected the world over as perhaps the finest example of single-hearted automotive engineering.

And yes, we'll be here...

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'83 SC

Lee, I believe your logic is quite sound, and you may be surprised how little 'help' you need from your mechanic!

If you don't already have it, I think your FIRST purchase should be Bruce Anderson's 2nd ed. 'Porsche 911 Performance Handbook' !!! He has a very good chapter (probably the best in the whole book) on engine rebuild fundamentals, including all of the tools required, and a checklist. Your second purchase should be the factory 'spec book' ... you will not regret it!

Even if one cylinder and head are trashed, you may not need a whole new set of cylinders and pistons ... if your othe 5 pistons are within spec, I would suggest just new rings, because those Nikasil cylinders have a good record with new rings! What I suggest is finding another, single, used piston and cylinder, then re-ring it along with your other good five!

Sorry about the bad luck!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Thanks Warren, I already have a set of 4 factory manuals, Haynes Manual, and Bruce Andersons book.
I do need to get my hands on a factory spec. book. Where can I get one?

The reason my mechanic said that I may end up replacing all pistons and cylinders is because mine might have worn out of spec due to the high mileage.
I will have to make that call when I get into the motor and see first hand what I've got.
Thanks Warren, you kick ass

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Leland Pate

___79 SC Targa

I just got off the phone with Pelican and they said that they have not been able to get the Spec. book I need. Any other ideas?

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Leland Pate

___79 SC Targa

You are on track as every one has said. My only question is why stop at the rmoval? You are going to do the hard part/ pain in the nech part, then turn over the fun to some one else! To rebuild the engine isn't all that hard. There are only a few steps that require any kind of special understanding that can readily be found. as long as you take your time and talk it through with knowledgeable people some of wich you find right here. I bought a rebuild kit from Motor Meister for my 2.7l that I rebuilt to RS. the top and bottom kit wich included every thing was around 500 $. Check out their web site thru www.platz.com . Then find a good machine shop. I used ollie's 714 558 7334. This is what these guys do they are very knowledgeable. There are other good ones out there. Lee at MM talked me through the rebuild as well as a few other trusted sources. Unfourtunately I hadn't found this BB yet or I know I would have got a lot of info here. You should break it down to square one. check the line bore, deck height, do the certs. Let me give you a run down on prices from ollie's for comparison. Align bore 125$, 20 bucks to remove old studs 175 to time cert the case,s this includes decking, oil squirter up grade 150$ I forgot what year you have, hot tank the case 10 make sure you remove the pressure reliefs (oil) Micro polish crank 20 magna flux 20 r/r plugs and clean crank 90 rebuild rods 20 a piece magns flux the set 20, Balance the engine 120, 3 angle valve job 160 for the set, resurface heads 120 for the set, repair exhaust studs 10 a piece intake and exhaust guides 10 each I think I covered most of a basic rebuild. Do ot yourself it will take you about 20 hrs once you have all the parts. you'll enjoy it and the sense of satisfaction is emense. Also MM will take any part you send them and inspect it they also have a machine shop they use for any machining. I didn't know this until after the fact. I am very pleased with Ollie's. Two problems I had after thinking about it one I didn't remove the pressure relief for the oil system and they hot tanked my case. that was a mess getting those pistons out and they probably should have known to look for that. Also I boat tailed my mains . There was still alot of finish hand work left for me to do, although they took of the bulk of the metal. Do it your self if you can get it out of the car and tear it down don't let some one else do the fun part! I don't know is it comming through I think you should do it yourself?

Thanks for the load of information!
I don't plan on stopping after removal. I was thinking more along the lines or removing and disassembling the engine myself. As far as reassembly goes...that is where I will probably need help. I will just have to see once I get into the motor.
A couple of questions:
I have a 3.0L, do I need Time Certs? I thought that was for stud pulling pron 2.7L's.
Can you describe to me exactly what bore lining, and deck hieght mean?
I know and understand the layout of my engine but there are serious holes or gaps in my knoweledge. I guess I know a little about everything but definately not everything.
Thanks for the advice.


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Leland Pate

___79 SC Targa

Also, I checked with Vertex, they have an Engine Rebuild kit for $750. It includes the following:

1 bottle of loctite 574
1 case gasket set
1 head gasket set
1 main bearing set (standard)<--don't really know what that means...
1 rod bearing set (standard)
1 intermediate shaft bearing set
12 rod bolts
12 rod nuts
9 fly wheel bolts
12 valve guides (phosphorous bronze)
6 chain rails
2 chains (I don't know why they include 2 timing chains)
1 piston ring set

This sounds pretty good to me . What else am I missing or will I need?

They also offer Dilvar head studs for 13.25 ea. but am I to understand that those are the ones that I have in my car now and are the ones that break?
thanks,

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Leland Pate

___79 SC Targa

Man, Leland, good luck. This ***** scares the holy guacamole out of me. Hope everything turns out OK.

What made you decide to do the full rebuild instead of just pulling the one stud out and replacing it?

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Mark Szabo
1986 911 Targa 3.2

DON'T SAY THINGS LIKE THAT!!!!!!!!!

You're supposed to be supportive!
I figure that with the engine torn down to the "Stud level" I may as well do a top end rebuild while I'm there. My wrench says that in his experience that cars with mileage like mine have valve guides that usually need attention. And, the fact that the car has most likely had a broken stud since I have owned it (20K+ ago), there is a good chance of cylinder/head damage. So there's your top end rebuild.
Then he asked me if I was planning to keep the car for a long time or not. I, of course, am planning on keeping it so hell, now that you've got the engine down to the bare case you might as well split the case and install new bearings and have the crank Magna fluxed. Theres your bottom end rebuild. So all of a sudden you are completely into the engine because of one broken bolt!
I just think that this is the best way to go considering the factors.
It's definately going to take a while to save up for all of the nessecary stuff. I figure I will wait to drop the motor until I have everything that I know that I will need to overhaul the engine. And I might be delayed if more unseen problems arise but I will just have to deal with whatever problems arise when I get there.
The benifits are of course "one hell of a good running motor" when I'm done.
If I get stuck somewhere I can always rely on you guys and my mechanic that is an hour away.

Pray for me.


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Leland Pate

___79 SC Targa

Your engine has two timing chains. One for each camshaft.

I agree with Warren. It sounds like the cylinders and pistons in our cars are so well made that they often do not need replacing at rebuild time. This is unheard of in other cars. A good used piston and cylinder set to replace a damaged one is, I suspect, an excellent idea. Certainly NO need to just replace them all. Too spendy too.

This whole thing will be WAY less intimidating to you afterwards. I don't think you will have much need of help for reassembly and I am glad to hear you predict that you will also do the "fun" part yourself.

Label everything since it may be days or weeks between disassembly/removal and assembly/installation. Keep a tidy work area and take notes. Photographs. The spec book for our cars is unavailable right now, to the best of my knowledge.

We'll be here. I can't explain how much better you will feel having expereienced this, but trust me when I tell you that you will have a new and richer relationship with your car for here on out.

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'83 SC

Leland, You will be just fine working on your car. The porsche can be intemadating to most of the public, but the engine is very simple and straight forward.
Take your time and if I were you I would completly rebuild the engine.I have rebuilt several porsche engines and Motor Miester is a good source of parts, I use them all the time. If you have a bad cylinder and piston, they have good used ones that can be purchased at a good price. Also a set of rebuilt heads is farily cheap too.
They have a complete, and I mean complete rebuild kit minus pistons and cylinders for about $700.00 us dollars. Also Rimco machining does allot of ther machine work, I used rimco for years. The studs that you want to use are the ones from raceware or arp. Expensive, but bite the bullet one time.
You are going about this the right way, and look at this way, you could be paying 6 to 10 k for a rebuild, buy someone you don't know. Atleast you will know your engine well when it is all over, and it will run like a charm.
Good luck!
DRD 85 Carrera

Hey Leland,
Keep us posted on this project. It has always been on the back of my mind to attempt this.

nick
1970 911 E

Gotta add this one thought - if you have ever thought about enhancing performance, this is the time!

I do think you are right about the certs. As I said before I forgot what you said you had for an engine. I believe th 3.0 is an aluminum case so the expansion problem isn't as severe. those studs that were mentioned are the best way to go but are very expensive. The thought on studs has changed may be changing even as we speak. E mail Bruce Anderson at www.911handbook.com and get his input tell him your engine what you want to do with it as far as use see what he has to say. Even with the "noted" 2.7's they are starting to shy away from the long expected fix of Dilvar studs as they seem to break more often. I wish I had known this earlier as this is what i put in as it seemed to be the accepted fix for the day. Check MM they post their kits and prices on their web page. the only difference I see and I must say I didn't look closely at what you posted for the kit but I know mm includes cam chains also i don't think I saw that in your list.
The align bore checks the bore of the main bearing thing ( what ever the bearings fit into) these some times get deformed so the bore makes them round again then you ahve to go to a std/1 over. This means that the origanal std for the crank and std or stock for the case, now you ahve changed the case size to the next size up that is why it is called 1 over. if the crank had to be machined at all then they would go to the next size 1 over on that dimension. Pray you won't need amything but std/std as anything other than this atleast doubles the price of the bearings and are not included in the price of the regular kit.

Thanks again guys,
Leave it to Rarly8 to bring up the Performance side of the discussion.
Answer:
"Love to"
"can't afford it"
Mackgoo, yes the rebuild kit comes with timing chains.

So, let me get this straight. My goals should be:
remove, clean, inspect, everything. Check the tolerances of the crank, intermediate shaft and clyinders. Have the bore aligned, crank and rods Magnafluxed, and a three way valve job done as a minimum?
I want to break down these different processes to decide how much they will cost, what I can and can't do my self, what needs to be shipped off and what can be done locally by my mechanic.
My goal of this is to end up with an engine that is as reliable if not more as when it was new. Horse power is just not a prime concern now.


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Leland Pate

___79 SC Targa

Just an update...
I emailed Bruce Anderson this afternoon and to my amazement he responded! He actually suggested just replacing the bottom row of studs with factory steel studs. He said there was no need to use Race ware unless I decided to replace all of them. He also suggested that I didn't need the factory 993 studs either.

I am starting to bone up on reading my Factory and Haynes manuals and Performance Handbook to get a better idea of what to expect.
I still can't decide whether or not to do a bottom end rebuild as well.

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Leland Pate

___79 SC Targa

Leland,
You should also consider just removing the engine/trans. taking the heads off and JUST replace the lower studs! If your compression is good and oil pressure and consumption are ok, just fix whats broke! I have disassembled and reassembled a 77 and it can be done. Let us know what you decide and will send on a few suggestions. Ned Monaghan

Did you say the car had over 200k? I don't know guys but how long do you expect the bearings to last? And infact to do the bearings your self is about 100$ for the bearings is it worth saving the money if in another 100k the bearings go and then you have to do it all over again? Ask Bruce about the bottom end, make sure you tell him the milage. He always gets back to his E mail. This is one thing I've found out about Porsches and Porsche people. No matter who they are, what their status is they love the cars and never balk at passing on what they know. Warren being an excellent example.

Leland, I didn't mean to sound discouraging, I just wanted to point out that you have bigger cojones than me. My car is at the DEALER right now, remember?

Anyway...despite the ability to replace that broken stud and be done, I'll concur with mackgoo on this one. Go all the way. You will have utter and complete peace of mind that way, and an education to boot.

Let us know.

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Mark Szabo
1986 911 Targa 3.2