HELP! 930 will not start!

I just picked up a 1985 930 Turbo which ran fine for a few days.

After letting the car sit for about three days I attempted to start the car. It turned over but was running very rough. It stalled and I continued to try and restart. For the first four times it would start then stall. Then when I turned it over it wouldn't start at all. The engine would turnover… just wouldn’t fire.

I checked the following:
Fuse's
Relays
Fuel Pump (getting power and working)
Starter is working fine...it cranks.
Battery is fully charged.
I pulled the plugs to make sure no fuel drained out. Small amount of gas on each plug. Let plugs dry and re-installed.
Checked to make sure I was getting spark and I am.

Not sure what else to check at this point. I've been told that it could be a vacuum leak or the rubber boot in the fuel distributor.

The engine has a rigged up air filter that is just sitting on the intake. The air box no longer exists. The car has been running like this for some time, I know it needs to be replaced. Is it possible the previous owner plugged something to get this type of air filter to work? The filter is basically an Edelbrock Triangle in a small pan. What prevents the car from having a huge vacuum leak without the factory air-box?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

have you checked your timing? or dwell angle? also, it seems you might be running rich and flooding if it won't start and gas is on the plugs...

hope this helps

[This message has been edited by paulhagedorn (edited 05-24-2000).]

Stupid and simple, but I did not see fuel filter on your list of items checked, sure sounds like it!!

Did you check both fuel pumps? (The rear pump
frequently gives trouble.)

K-Jetronic FI systems are very touchy on several items: fuel pressure, are both pumps running and do they both run when key is turned on? In a stock setup they don't run till the engine cranks because of a switch in the fuel distributor which is actuated by the flow valve. If the plug from this is unhooked then that usually means there is a problem with the fuel distributor/switch. Fuel quality, make sure there is good gas, no moisture or other residual goop as it can cause problems plugging the internal passages in the fuel distributor. Next, does the fuel distributor work correctly when the pumps are running? With the air cleaner off, if you move the air flapper you should hear a bzzzzzt sound of the fuel distributor letting fuel through. Finally, the warmup regulator can malfunction and lower fuel pressure too much resulting in rich running or hard starting. They get tweeked sometimes to richen the fuel mixture when the engines are hot-rodded, so check to see if yours is stock and working? The stock air cleaner has several vents and feeds that are connected to it. If they are blocked, since the air cleaner was trashed, then that can cause significant problems. I modified the air cleaner on our 1987 Turbo, but kept all the connections intact. Here is a good link explaining the K-Jet FI systems and what the parts do/don't do: http://www.students.tut.fi/~hezekiel/bosch.htm
If you wish to call me in the evening at 7:00pm or so San Diego time, I'll look at our car and tell you where things are hooked to. My number is 619-691-8640. I guess the moral of the story is drive those turbos and they are happy!


[This message has been edited by john rogers (edited 05-25-2000).]

I would address the problem as the fuel system going rich. A drop in fuel pressure will cause the fuel system to go rich. I believe the two main common causes are:
1.Clogged fuel filter.
2.Fuel pumps not working properly.
If the front(transfer) pump is not working the car won't start. If the rear(pressure) pump is not working the car may start but it probably won't idle,it will run roughly with lots of black smoke.
If the pumps are using stock wiring hook up, they should be rewired any way. Each pump should have i'ts own power supply directly to the battery through a circuit breaker. If you want more details on wiring let me know.

Thanks to all the great responses! I hope to have her back up and running for the weekend.

I plan to replace the Fuel Filter tonight, which was something I didn’t check.

I couldn’t locate the rear fuel pump. I just got a Haynes Repair Manual that should show me the location and I’ll check that.

If I hit the flap on the CIS it does make a very strange sound. Kind of a wisping sound, so I think it’s delivering fuel properly.

I also didn’t check the Warm-Up Regulator, I need to find that too.

It’s been hot-rodded for sure. It’s a twin-plug engine with ElectroMotive HPV-1’s. It has a monster Andial Intercooler with boost control. She also has headers and a bunch of other fun stuff. I really bought the car for it’s engine.

I’ll keep you posted on the progress. I’m getting a Power-Flow Intake tomorrow to replace the ugly Edelbrock thing.

Since it has some ANDIAL work done I would bet it has their fuel enrichment system too. I think that works by changing the warmup regulator so pressure drops some how and enriches the fuel to the engine at full boost. You might want to call them and see what they say, I talked to them several times in the past and got good advice. If it is twin plugged, make sure BOTH sets of plugs are firing since if one set fails it will run but bad.

Hitting the flap will only tell you fuel is being delivered,it won't tell you if the pressure is proper. So..don't disregard the operation of the pumps yet. You will still feel resistance and sound with one pump running. If you are turning on the key and the pumps are not running you may be hearing and feeling residual pressure in the system.
so.. I guess the flow switch is unpluged. If the pumps are running with the ignition on, go under the car just in front of the left rear wheel, in board a little,(follow the
fuel line) and put your hand on the pump. you should feel it running.

OK, bad night for the 930. Picked up a new fuel filter and had the joy of installing that. If it could only be just a little more cramped. Well, unfortunately that didn’t fix my problem.

So I moved onto disconnecting the cold start injector and spraying Ether into the CIS Intake. To my wonderful surprise the car still wouldn’t start . Needless to say I’m starting to get very discouraged.

The engine cranks but never wants to fire. I’ve checked spark at the Electromotive units and both banks are firing. I’ve checked spark at the end of the wires and that works. The car has all new plugs installed also.

So I’ve got air, fuel, and spark and the car wont start.

The car has boxed rockers so I don’t know were to jack the rear of the car up. I can’t tell what the rear fuel pump is doing. When I turn it over the starter is too loud to hear the rear fuel pump. However, even if I wasn’t getting fuel the Ether should have started the car.

If you're getting a BLUE spark, then perhaps there is a static timing test. Static timing is probably just after TDC. If a blue spark is happening at the right time, you can screw the spark plug back in and know it's not your ignition.

Hot rodders play with fuel pressures. These cars are very sensitive to fuel pressures. You might want to own a pressure gauge.

With the ignition working, if there was gas there would be action. Can you pull an injector, turn the ignition on and push the airflow sensor plate very briefly to see if it sprays?

------------------
'83 SC

I agree, with spark and fuel something should happen. Sometimes when working on the
engine and doing a lot of cranking and priming the engine gets soaked with fuel (flodded) perhaps pulling the bottom plugs and letting the cylinders dry out will help. Also try venting the intake system to dry out.
Under normal conditions when you crank the engine the fuel pumps do not turn on. They will ONLY TURN ON WHEN THE ENGINE STARTS. For testing purposes you must make them turn on without the engine running. A couple of ways will work.
1.unplug the green plug to the air flow switch so the pumps will run with just the ignition switch on, you do not need to crank the engine.
2. You can pull the fuel pump relay and jumper the plug to start the pumps. I would have to look in the book to know which ones as i don't remember.

Bob,

I did pull the plugs and gas was on them. I let everything dry out for a while and tried to start it again. Still nothing. The car hasn't been running for over a week now.

I tested both fuel pumps as you suggested. I sounded like both fuel pumps were working correctly.

I'm starting to think something really bad happened. As you can imagine a serious engine rebuilt was not factored into the price.

It was good to talk to you last night. Sorry to hear the instant start did not make it fire. I would recommend pulling the plugs and doing a compression test. Leave one in the cylinder you are checking since it is dual plugged. Make sure the throttle is wide open since this is a cold engine the pressure will be low but there should be some? You might want to pull the monster intercooler and see if a shop rag is in the intercooler plumbing as I heard of this once before happening. Inspect the piping from the flow sensor to the turbo very carefully for cracks/splits and insure all o-rings are greased well. Look inside the inlet/outlet of the intercooler for anything that could block off the air to the throttle valve since usually instant start will make anything fire even with bent valves or cracked heads (not yours I hope) and it may not be getting into the cylinders. Good luck.

Don't get too excited, it's probably something pretty straightforward. While I admit it's possible, I definitely do not suspect internal engine problems. With gas and spark, you WILL get fire.

I gonna wonder again whether your injectors are spraying, and whether there is a procedure to simply check that (pull one and see if it sprays while an assistant tries to start the car).

On you car, I believe that not spraying coudl still be an electrical problem, since the injectors are the spurt type instead of the constant spray (CIS) type.

There other guys know much more about your system than I, but if you have a nice blue spark happening at the right time, then fuel and air WILL complete the equation.

Don't start looking at drastic, expensive stuff yet. I think you car's not getting fuel.

------------------
'83 SC

Oops, I guess you said the plugs nad gas on them. As Gilda Radner said, "nevermind."



------------------
'83 SC

It sounds like your fuel system is bleeding fuel off all the time, or maybe a rag stuck somewere. I have seen engines so flodded with gas they wouldnt turn over.
If the plugs were wet they are way to rich to fire, sounds kinda off the wall, but by holding her to the floor,and cranking her over will clear the cylinders quite fast, and she will fire. The engine will not turn 6 grand right off but will blow black smoke and clear soon then left your foot to normal. But first, I would pull a injector and see what is happen with ignition on.
Remember you need 3 things to fire. Compression, fuel, Ignition. If you dont have compression, she most lickly has jumped timming.
Good Luck
DRD 85 Carrera

I want to thank everyone for helping out.

I'm going to keep plugging away until I figure this one out. Please keep the suggestions coming.

My Power Flow filter came in today.

Lot's of good suggestions. I also don't think anything is drastically wrong yet. About now, I would varify the basics to make sure I am not spinning my wheels.
1.Compression check. I don't think it's a factor, but just to be sure.
2.Varify ignition timing. Put a wrench on the pully (or crank it while using a timing light)and see that the plug fires as the pully passes it's timing mark.
3.Fuel system. Most of us, including myself, believe it is in this area. I had lot's of pump problems until I rewired the fuel pumps, so I kind of lean in that direction. Consider investing in or borrow a pressure guage to measure your fuel pressure under various conditions. You can also varify that the system pressure is not leaking down.
I'm Bob W. from my computer at work and also Bob w.2 from my computer at home.

You say this is an '85 930? Is the engine type 930/66? If so the fuel system is CIS with no emition controls (stock). The fuel injection is hardlined so it is very difficult to pull an injector. Have you spoken to the PO about this problem? All the modifications, some maybe unknown, make diagnosis difficult. I agree with all the above suggestions and lean tward fuel delivery or timing as the problem. I would like to examine this rigged up air cleaner, would you sell it? If so send me an e-mail. I'll keep thinking about this, good luck.