Got ripped off at the dealer

I got ripped off badly the other day. When I got my car last August, I decided to lower the car to euro specs. I've been working in the auto repair/tuning bussines for most of my life, but it was my first time working on a 911. It took me about 2 hours in total to lower and adjust the rear end of my 86 this spring. I removed the spring plates, torsion bars, and all camber and toe adjustments with ease. Even though the car is 14 years old, the bolts all loosened with ease. So, I put 4 new tires and made an appointment at the dealer for a wheel alignment, thinking I can trust them. When I brought the car in, the service manager told me the price; $114.95 plus tax, unless anything was seized. I assured him that nothing was seized and made a point to mention that I lowered the car and all the adjustment bolts were removed/installed a few weeks ago. I left my phone number an asked him to call me if anything came up.
I called the dealer at around 4pm to see if my car was ready for pick-up, and was told the car would be ready at 5pm. When I walked in the dealer, the service manager told me "we had alot of fun with your car." When I asked what he meant, he said that everything was seized in the rear and the mechanic had to torch ALL the bolts! He said it took 3.94 hours to do the alignment. I thought he was joking so I laughed. He assured me that it was no joke. I again explained how impossible it is for the bolts to have been seized, and I asked him if he noticed that my car was lowered, he said yes and then I again explained how all the adjustment bolts would have to have been loosened for that to occur. He wouldn't budge and took me to my car, still in the garage, and pointed out the oxy/acetylin tanks next to my car and said, "you see, the torch is still here!"
He showed me a bill of $443 and I freaked. He then said he would make me a good deal and made another bill of $311. I was very frustrated abd late for something so I paid. The next day when I went to work I put my car on the lift to check the adjusters for torching signs but there was obviously none. I then called the dealer and asked to speak to the mechanic, who told me that everything was seized. I then told him that even if everything was seized, how can it take 4 hours to heat up a few bolts? (ewhich wasn't the case anyway)
I don't want to leave this pass without taking action. What can I do?
Mike

That SUCKS! I really feel for you. I'm not sure of the laws where you are, I live in Canada. But if it was me I would have another shop look at your car and have them note that there are no marks from the torch, then I would take pictures.

I would take the shop to small claims court, because even if they WERE seized you left instructions to call you before doing any work. Therefore they have to call!

I would also report this to the Better Business Bureau. They may have had other complaints, or may have more in the future.

I think if you are persistent enough and cover ALL your bases they WILL refund your money.

Good LUCK, and would you refer this shop to a friend? Remember that bad news travels quickly!

Shawn

I am always sorry when I hear of situations like yours. I too had a similar story, but made worse by my own checks and balances.

I used to initial all of the parts that were to be changed during my monthly, quarterly, and yearly maintenance. I would etch the plugs, pads, cap, etc. I brought my car in for a service and much to my dismay the car ran about the same when it left as when it went in. The oil was clean, but upon inspection of the oil filter, it had never been changed. The same went for the other filters. Nothing had been done and I got a bill for over $700, including the valves and some other things.

Needless to say, I stopped the charge and never went back to them, but I had already bought 3 cars from these guys and I thought that we were friends.

Oh well... I now have an honest mechanic and beautifully running cars. SOmetimes it is not worth going after these guys in court, since time is money. Sorry, again, to hear about your situation.

I think the best thing to do is to take them to court. A lot of times companies will refund your money, once court is brought in to the picture. Like he said earlier bad news travels fast. The best of luck.

This reminds me of a story that I once heard where a guy got ripped off and couldn't get the money back so he bought a stack of bricks (small investment) and loaned the dealer one through the picture window every so often until his increased satisfaction from "giving" out weighed his losses

Just kidding Mike, I hope that it works out for you. These matters seldom do though. The only way for it to stop is for people to stop going there. Unfortunately, We all know that as long as people with "Money" go there and are ignorant/don't care about getting ripped off the shop will keep going strong.

Try the court route but if not I hope the above story made you at least

s



[This message has been edited by H2O911 (edited 06-18-2000).]

Forget court. Cancel the damn check. Find out who the general manager is and let him know that he will not receive payment for anything above the written estimate and that you are aware unfair business practices are taking place. Assure him all your fellow PCA members and 911 pals will be notified.

EVERY 911 ALIGNMENT SHOP DOES THE SAME EXACT THING. MAKE IT CLEAR THAT YOU WILL PAY FOR THE SERVICE BUT NOT THE EXTRA BS. THAT HAPPENED TO ME ONCE ON MY 88 TARGA, ONCE. THE CAR WAS HIT IN THE LEFT REAR AND I PUT IN A NEW SPRING PLATE AND BUSHINGS. THE BOZO AT STAHL TOLD ME IT TOOK 2 HOURS TO REMOVE THE BOLTS. I TOLD HIM HIS TECHNICIAN IS EITHER INEPT OR JUST A LIAR. NEVER AGAIN. MAKE IT CLEAR UP-FRONT.

They all do the same thing with regards to a wheel alignment. What a pisser. I'd cancel the check and tell the dealer to kiss my ass.

The best 911 alignment I ever received was the one I did myself with the use of 12 ft. flourescent bulbs and a camber gauge. Laugh but I do them myself now. Too many scumbags out there. With all the laser racks and high tech equipment, the best way may be the old fashioned methods. Sorry about the grief.

Rich

This is all too common with shops these days,
A Porsche repair shop is like a license to steal as the owners typically have no reservations about spending money for maintenance along with the preconceived notion they are expensive maintenance cars

I always will watch them work if possible, it may bug some but at least I know what they did

On a 68 Corvette conv. I had, a shop replaced my rear end but the next day I noticed they cracked the lower rear quarter panel fibreglass (my car was mint)of cousre they never mentioned it to me.

Its unfortunate but I feel you need to work on your car youself for a quality job with no new surprises such as dents, scratches, over torqued bolts, replacement of unworn parts etc.
At least you will know you got what you paid for.

When you say "dealer" do you mean Porsche dealer? They probably just need a little arm twisting. I had a run in with the service manager at a Chrysler dealer, and following the advice of a consumer reporter was able to get some results.

Our car (under warranty) had a very noisy transmission. After the third trip where they kept the car for a week and then claimed they could not duplicate the problem, I got a little upset. The service manager was really talking to me like I was delusional. I told him they had one more chance to fix this thing or I was going to start making noise myself. He still kept implying that I was making this up and just needed to live with it.

Consumer reporter Clark Howard (WSB TV/Radio in Atlanta) has suggested this to many people so I gave it a try. I told the service manager that if he would not fix the car that I was going to go buy a large piece of poster board and write "Ask me about the service here before you buy a car." I promised to spend all day Saturday on the sidewalk in front of the dealership with my sign. He laughed and said, "You wouldn't do that!" I turned around and started walking away and said over my shoulder, "See you Saturday!" Needless to say, I didn't make it to the car. Suddenly he offered to have the regional service rep look at it. He did and the entire transmission was replaced.

If you try this stunt, you have to be prepared to follow through. Then if anyone DOES ask you about your service problems you have to stick to the facts and not get personal or you risk a law suit. Dealers sell most of their cars on Saturdays and will do what it takes to keep you from following through on this!

Mike,
One more thing came to my mind:
When my mechanic had to torch the rear adjusting bolts, he warned me that he ALWAYS replaced the plates going from torsion bar to rear hub, because the heat of the torch destroys the vulcanized rubber, either on the spot by melting, or by hardening it, which leads to failure within a month or so.
I don't know about others' experience, but it seems obvious to me that it's the consequence of the procedure. Ask your "shop" about that?
BTW I've done the job with my mechanic, as he insisted I was there to help him try to budge the screws without heat first. That way we came to the obvious solution together.
My $0.02, GeorgeK

If you paid with Visa, MC, or AMEX. Call them and dispute the charge. I always use one of the cards when I can if I am buying service or parts. It gives me that added leverage if I need it. All the card companies are very good about going to bat for a customer against a vendor. By all means, take pictures and have someone witness that there are no burn marks.

Hi guys, thanks for responding. The dealer I talk of is Auto Strasse, in Montreal, Canada. Anyone in this area, don't go there. I own a garage and never once did I ever lie or do anything dishonest to a customer. That was the way I was brought up and that's the way my father taught me before I took over the bussines. That's why we have been open for over 25 years. When I see such obvious dishonesty, I feel like these are the people that give mechanics a bad name. Besides dishonest, they are stupid for even trying to fool a fellow auto worker. I did mention BEFORE leaving the car that nothing is seized. My car has 101,000 km or about 60,000 miles, never winter driven, so even if i hadn't loosened all the bolts for lowering, they still wouldn't have been seized. Unfortunately, I paid cash so I can't stop payment, but anyway, it's not really the money(partly), it's mostly the principal.
If all that isn't enough, upon pickup i was told that the front camber is too negative and can't be corrected enough because the front is lowered too much. Ok, I figured that was normal, but when I looked at the copy of the alignment specs before/after, my front camber is now alot more negative than before!! Another thing, my steering is now much tighter than normal. For example, if I turn the steering 1/4 turn or less, while driving, the steering will keep that angle; it won't come back to center.
This dealer is the biggest porsche dealer in montreal and has alot of pull , even with PCA. I had the idea to notify my region and let them know but then how do I know they will side with me? I guess they pull stunts like this because they know they can get away with it.
Something funny; the service manager told mee he actually witnessed the mechanic having trouble with the bolts. I told him that I can't take his word for it and his reply was "your transmission is painted blue right? Now how would I know that if I wasn't there?" I laughed, told him to get a more competent staff and that's when he got offended and started raising his voice. I am going to call back tommorrow and I'll let you guys know what happens.
Again, thanks.
Mike

Aside from the money issue at the moment, I would like to suggest some things you can do to show that the 'little guy' can pack a bigger punch, and cause more pain within the Porsche Cars North America corporate structure for that service manager and mechnic ever imagined possible!

1. If possible, do not drive the car until a 'zone representative' has seen the car, and examined your evidence that no torch left any visible traces on your car.

2. Contact the dealership's general manager and request contact information for the service 'zone rep.' and simultaneously do internet search or emails to PCNA for the same information.

3. If you have 35 mm or digital camera, make appointment with Notary Public, to witness you taking a list of photographs, of every single bolt, adjuster, trailing arms, etc. that were supposedly 'frozen' and subsequently 'torched' in the process of doing the outrageously charged service ticket. Get the statement dated and notarized to document the car's 'current' condition in the sequence of numbered photographs of the bolts, eic. in question.

4. When you have the photo evidence showing conditions that indicate no 'torching' and the notarized document showing the date after such work was supposedly done, then contact the PCNA zone rep. with your complaint citing the questionable service ticket, your documentation of the car's condition after work was supposedly done, and a personal statement listing a timeline of the people you talked to, the gist of each conversation, what you found when the car was returned to you, and every conversation after you started complaining about the charges on the ticket. Your statement and timeline needs to be concise, without inflammatory adjectives or comments, just the facts of the incident as you can best remember them!!!

5. Start keeping a log, beginning with the day of the incident of: 1) Name of every person you have contacted, 2) Date and time of contact, 3) Summary of the conversation, 4) Comments as to accuracy of info given to you, or what bothers you about each contact, if you found out something later by personal research or examination of your car, or information from another person or source, such as an independent mechanic.

6. Contact your state's Consumer Protection Division about your case, and include all contact info in a 'file' about this incident, along with everything else I have suggested about documenting this case.

7. File a complaint with your local BBB, mention the 'file' and documentation you have been building up.

In summary, I suggest you document your case, contact PCNA, follow-up on all contacts, keep a record of those contacts, contact BBB, State consumer Protection agency, but avoid if at all possible, threats of any kind (legal action, etc.) ... be polite, but firm in all contacts and follow-ups. Good luck!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

I've criticized professional mechanics before on this board and I'll probably do it again, although in this case it is the business, not the mechanic, that is a problem. Mike, I very well know that there are some brilliant mechanics out there and many honest businesses, so forgive my past and future criticisms of some of your competitors.

I've found that the technique Warren describes is most effective. Red faced name callers are not scary. Calm information gatherers, letter writers, file builders, are very scary. Yes, there would be a Porsche area service rep whose job it is to satisfy all customers he or she contacts. Period.

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'83 SC

Mike, I do sympathize with your situation, and don't mean to sound too 'antiseptic' about the experience, but it may take some time for inertia, and wiser souls up the corporate food chain to realize just how bad it would look for the details of your case, should some consumer affairs reporter 'get a hold' of you case information, and decide to highlight it on the evening news! And a letter to Panorama detailing your case would not put them in good light with all of the faithful herd, either ... just don't send it out, yet!

It may take weeks, even months, but service managers have been fired over less dramatic cases! I have a feeling you will eventually get a 'courtesy' check for the entire amount of your bill, and maybe even a free certificate for some service, maybe a wash or wax job, along with an appologetic letter from PCNA, or the dealership. I am certain the owner, and probably the general manager will not like what the zone rep. has to say to them, once a formal review of your complaint takes place!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Even my two local independant Porsche shops will find a way to inflate the final repair bills. I " trust" their work to some extend ( on stuff I can't do myself ) but everytime I will end up paying more than I should. The last time I picked up my car late, right at closing, I was presented with a bill two pages long. With all the parts numbering, it was a long reading that I did later back home after I had paid the bill. Somehow their " discount" on the parts was offset by 12 hours of labor for a car dropped at 8:30 AM and picked up at 4:30 PM !!!!
Anyway, I had big troubles with my Chrysler dealer about a repair. It took over six months and many letters and many Emails and many phone calls. My wife even said I was too stubborn and as stupid as them but I kept at it. I went straight to the manufacturer and that was my salvation : they were surprised to see me going at it every two weeks and finally I received a check for the full amount.....
No need to say, I will not shop there ever again, neither my friends as well. I might even never buy a Chrysler product for my entire life !!!
Be patient and consistent and go to Porsche directly after showing letters sent to the dealer. Good luck to us all !!!
Thierry

Update us please

I didn't get a chance to call or do anything about it this week, I've been very busy working 12 hour days. I plan to call tomorrow, and every second day from there on to keep bugging them. Warren, your advice is perfect but I can never find the time for all that! I actually found their website ( www.autostrasse.com ) and had the idea of attaching this post to a message to let them know I'm not taking this sitting down. What do you guys think? The problem is that they are the biggest of only two Porsche dealers in Montreal and I doubt I will intimidate them enough for them to actually do anything about my complaint. Another thing, they probably will never go back on what they said because then they would be admitting to be crooks. Anyway, thanks for your support and I'll keep it posted!
Mike

It doesn't matter a bit if they "admit" anything. If a court, or PCNA, finds that you were overcharged, the situation will be resolved - end of story.

Some dealers are OK, though - my local dealer is great about customer service, and every time I deal with the service manager he finds a way to cut my costs, and even lets me ship him parts from Pelican.

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Mark Szabo
1986 911 Targa 3.2

Sorry to hear about your local dealer. I have no idea what the legal possibilities are in Canada. Warren's suggestion regarding the PCNA; etc. seems excellent.

1. Most states in the US have laws prohibiting work in excess of a written estimate w/o prior customer approval. Any work performed by your dealer above his ~$120 estimate would therefore be unauthorized.

2. There may be other remedies available to you that would permit the recovery of damages in excess of the money you overpaid. You might also have additional remedies under your local law. In the states at least this might give the dealer more incentive to refund your money.

If you're really upset I would contact a local attorney who deals with auto issues. Maybe since you've got your own garage you've already got one. My experience in the states is that a customer who is armed with both all the facts and documentation (which I think is what Warren suggested) AND a solid understanding of his legal remedies gets a better reception from businesses who at first appear to be hard of hearing.

Lee
'83 SC Targa

I had a problem in Ottawa with a Chrysler dealership in the '80s. They sold me a "low mileage Chrysler executive driven car" which had been totalled and rebuilt.

The bottom line is that my lawyer got absolutely nowhere, Chryslers defence was "deny, Deny, DENY" in the disclosure. In the U.S. a lawyer may have taken it on a contingency basis for a percentage of the punitive damages but in Canada this was illegal at the time, probably still is. So you get all the justice you can afford, $1500 in my case - for nothing.

All this was happening at a time when Chrysler was replacing vehicles in the U.S. under the same circumstances.

I finally got the dealership to do a lot of additional work on the car to make it safe and extend the warranty by 3 years to back up everything they promised. I did this by copying them on a letter I planned to send to the local newspaper. I got an immediate response along the lines of "we don't need to see this in the newspaper, stop by and we'll try to make you happy".

Good luck.