Ah, Guys...

Look what I've gone and done!
http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/Forum1/HTML/005310.html

I'm going to need some help, methinks!

It's just a bunch of dudes going on and on about how great their cars are and how bad Porsches are. Whatever. To each his own, I say; these guys just happen to make less than we do.

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Mark Szabo
1986 911 Targa 3.2

Even If YUGO was still around..? and They developed a "super car".... I wouldn't buy one.

Sorry, I just love the 911 look. No, on second thought, I am not sorry at all!

s

Ever noticed how everyone compares their car to a Porsche? To me that sais it all.

I love it when people compare a companies best product TODAY to Porsches best from 12 years ago. Yes, my 2000 Audi A4 will accelerate about as fast as a 911 SC. But, what was Audi's fastest offering in 1980? Why don't they compare the new 911 Turbo?

Oh well. I did get something nice from my visit to that board.... this cool little animations:

What the heck is a "Scoob" anyway.....????

Lee, as an official forum whore, I have run across some pretty good ones:





There's more, but I won't subject you.

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Mark Szabo
1986 911 Targa 3.2

I agree with all that is stated above and enjoy the company of you folks. Thanx for the fun.

Our cars are the comparison standard. Period. My car is 17 years old, and I can pass almost any one I want, whether they like it or not. But the HANDLING is where our cars really shine. Most of the "sport" cars out there are just ordinary cars with wider tires and a decal somewhere.

And I recall a thread some time ago where we discussed what is a "performance" car. I appreciated the 'devil's advocate' position, but my car generates about one horsepower per cubic inch of displacement. Not many cars do that, and no one really disputes that they are performance cars.

Technology has improved in recent years, but have you noticed that Bosch seems to have been the number one automotive tech innovator worldwide, for many decades? MANY, MANY of the the world's most important automotive advances have been first seen on German cars.

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'83 SC

I don't really feel like posting this to the Sub board (I'm a wimp, sorry Matt), but I think another thing to remember is the 911s excessive character (for want of a better word, you know, 35 year old design). Oh, and more importantly, I considered a Subaru WRX at Porsche purchase time but ruled it out based on image. Porsche has wanky image, true, but in NZ the WRX's are pretty thick on the ground and suffer from a serious boy racer image. I just didn't really want to face up to that.

Besides, I think my '75 911 has pretty much stopped depreciating, and the Subarus are going to keep having in value every three to four years. Of course, I should probably factor in the cost of my "essential" paint job, etc and ridiculous parts costs!

So the Subaru's quicker and more practical? Yep, but I don't care!!

Cam

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Cameron Baudinet
1975 911S

Matt- you're just asking for it trying to defend old Porsches against modern rally weapons. Yours is an awesome car and you should be content with that. Fast modern cars are competant and you just have to appreciate the advances. Subaru make great cars, and I think they have a following because the manufacturers have a vision that doesn't have many parallels in other Japanese industries. They are innovators and, like Porsche have stuck singlemindedly to a concept (flat four)and then refined it. They have guts, and are reaping the benefits in terms of huge sales. People like that attitude in cars because it's what they want to be like as people. Good on them.

But they would bore me stupid within a few weeks, once I had discovered the performance limits etc what is left? Boy racing with everyone at the traffic lights who looks sidewards? I would only consider one if I was really into depreciating assets and amorphous shapes. How many Sub owners say (like a lot of you guys do regularly) "It's a keeper", or "I'm going to hang on to this one". Porsche make hugely well made cars with character by the bucket load. Owning and fixing one gives unparalleled rewards and usually admiration and respect from the masses. They will always do this, and will always look great. A design landmark for the discerning.

Who cares if they can get from point A to B faster, they still got there in a Subaru.

Hope I haven't offended, just my $.02 (about $.00000002 Australian)

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Paul
911T'69

[This message has been edited by Paul W (edited 06-14-2000).]

Matt, I'll take that challenge.. reply posted

Guys, Matt asked me to come over and back him up from the Porsche board. Seems he started a fire here... So, I'm putting in my $.02 (american).

While the WRX is no doubt, a fantastic car. The engine is obviously sound (a mag here got 300hp out of our model with external mods and turbo tweeks). I gotta say that on pavement, a WRK to a late model wouldn't win.. Given the following.. both cars stock, Same driver on time trials, average temp day (20C).

Of course this is theory, but here goes.
1) center of gravity - WRX is too high and too far forward
2) wind resistance
3) Brakes (and braking balance)
4) Durability (no insult here, I mean temps)

Obviously, a 0 or - deg C day would help the imprezza in a straight line.

I think if you start modifying, anything is possible, so we'll just stay with available models.

Of course you could disagree, but realize that I am not some stupid red-hazed Porschephile. I won my first now, an 87 targa. (yes, it flexes, and the wind noise stinks.. but hey I only paid $13K american)
I do also have about 10 yrs experience amateur racing and instructing. I have to say that the the RSamerica is the most impressive car I have ever been in. Yes, even though it was really designed in 1966.

Now, if you want to talk about old datsun 510's.... they were fun.. slow but fun. Tossable, great brakes, that was a well balanced car.

What I have found is that the 911 is very unsatisfying to drive at less than 7/10ths. after that, it comes alive.. You have to steer with the throttle, and keep the revs up.

Feel free to continue arguing and drag my good name through the mud.. See ya.

I think everyone is missing the point. When these rice burners are about 3 years old they will be just another car that has had the s**t run out of it and it won't be around anymore. On the other hand, how many porsches do you think will still be out there pounding the pavement and looking "excellent". No comparison there.

Let these little fart muffler want-a-be's do their thing - eventually they will self destruct.

Just my opinion.

Steve

Scott, thanks for helping me out! You posited some scientific explanations that help to explain why a 911 is the superior performance package to the WRX in the right hands. It’s what was needed! Now all I have to do is convince these weasels that 911’s are really not savage, unwieldy beasts designed to swap ends; that a 911 is far more neutral than its configuration suggests.

Everyone, I stumbled across the link to this Subaru bulletin board while visiting that 911 Vs WRX page that I was originally directed to.

There is a seething rivalry that exists between Subaru WRX owners and 911 owners, especially here in Australia, and as a champion of all things 911, it has been my natural inclination to contribute to the healthy rivalry in any way I can, whether on the highway or the super-highway, but only if provoked!

When I spent some time familiarising myself with this particular UK-based Subaru BB, I expectedly came across some topics, and a subtext shared by many of the WRX owners who contribute to the board, a subtext that I felt to be an unhealthy expression of this rivalry by way of organising inter-club events expressly with the intent of attempting to show-up any marque they can, in this case Porsche.

It seems to me that this rivalry and its varying degrees of intensity is not constrained to Australian shores; it seems to be ubiquitous. When the WRX arrives in America later in the year, this rivalry will also find its way to American shores, and sooner or later, every 911 owner in America will be confronted with desperate, prowling WRX drivers salivating for 911 scalps. Trust me!

But here in Australia, the rivalry was established; the line in the sand was drawn when the president of Subaru Cars Australia took out a full-page ad in a major Melbourne newspaper urging all WRX owners to declare war on the 911 brigade! I'm not kidding, this actually happened! Pretty soon after that, the WRX Car Club was formed, and it wasn’t long before the club aspired to arrange inter-club events, namely WRX Vs 911 track days.

As evidenced by this, and from letters to the editor in major Aussie car rags, most WRX drivers subscribe to the theory that their rides are invincible, and as evidenced by the bahaviour of the WRX club and of WRX drivers on the road, they’re especially keen to prove it to us poor, helpless 911 owners!

But I cannot and will not believe that the WRX for all its virtues: forced induction, AWD, good power to weight ratio, is a package that is superior performance-wise to a 911 with comparable specs, namely the 73-89’ euro spec Carreras, 90’-00’ MODERN Carreras, and the later model, euro spec SC’s. Beyond the interest in healthy, online contributions to this rivalry such as the topic I posted at the Subaru BB that essentially links to this Aussie-based 911 Vs WRX contest, I am fascinated intellectually with the idea of the perceived invincibility of the WRX in dry weather. My feeling is it isn’t infallible, far from it. I have driven several of them, and they feel fallible, and not just compared with a 996 or a 993, but with older, vintage 911’s, such as the 1973 Carrera RS.

Yeah, I know pre-964 911s are charismatic, involving, lithe, alacritous, and aurally magnificent. Yes, there is nothing like a pre-964 911, there never will be. I just always thought and believed that the 911 was king of the road, invincible; a mass-produced, forced induction buzz box inspired and influenced by Porsche can’t be superior in strictly performance terms to most 911’s, it just can’t


[This message has been edited by Matt Holcomb (edited 06-15-2000).]

Um, not that this is a Subarice forum, but what is a "WRX" as compared to a (US) Imprezza Turbo AWD? I briefly "raced" one of the aforementioned last summer in my lightly mod-ed M3 and discovered it to be very, very quick in a straight line as well as in the corners. This one was definitely not stock, but at probably 1/2 the price of my bimmer, rice power aside, it was pretty imprezzive.

That said, of course they are not Porsches, are made of recycled Asahi cans and will all be worth $1500 and self-destruct into a pile of PIAA foglight fragments and assorted decals the day after their warranty expires...

Hi folks, now you've gone and done it, you've got a Subaru owner posting here!
I just have a few points, I'll try not to bore you and I hope you take the time to read this.
The fight was started on the UK BBS by one of your members coming in and posting on this thread : http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/Forum1/HTML/005115.html
The post Matt submited above was always going to get a few backs up. There was no ill feeling towards Porsche expressed on the BBS before Matt stirred things up.
It is ridiculous to suggest Porsche are no good, clearly, but alo the WRX should be applauded as a fine performance car when in the hands of a good driver. Its rally heritage is short, but it has been very succsesful during one of the most competitive times of rally history.
Mark Szabo - we are comparing WRX's against Porsche 911's costing the same, I think salary isn't an issue here, my car cost £ 45,000 for your guide, cudda got a new 911 carrera for £55k. My reasons for the choice are outlined below.
H20911 - LOL, nice point, however Subaru are enthusiasts cars in England because of their rally heritage, which though short has featured 1 world rally champion already, and this season may produce a second.
RarlyL8 -This comparison was thrust upon us by Matt Holcomb, who compared his 24 year old 911 to our brand new cars, and told us we were idiots for making our choice.
LeeH - Exactly right, though reading Matts posts I think he would disagree with you.
Superman -I assume you are a skilled driver, and with some practice in an AWD car you would find much the same result in an WRX. There is no doubt when comparing same era cars that Porsche have set the standard in their class.
Cameron - It's a shame you have to admit that you were swayed in your buying decision by the cars percieved image. Luckily in England the Subaru has a very fine image amongst enthusiasts, though it hardly warrants a second glance from the average man on the street. This is definitely changing for the worse however - the car is getting cheaper and is falling more and more into the hands of undesirables, but the car is not becoming worse because of this.
Matt S - I can't find a flaw in your arguements, except that I ask what happened after you discovered the performance limits of your 911? Is admiration and respect from the masses much more important to you than the absolute performance limit?
Paul W - hehehe good point. Personal choice is an important consideration - but does it make 1 car better than another dynamically?
Scott M - Can't argue, my sentiments exactly.
stormcrow - The point is which car is dynamically better, a unmodified 24 years old 911 or a new WRX, on todays roads, in Britan.(A damp miserable place.) Not which car looks better.

I have had an interest in performance cars since I was a kid - like most guys. My father was an enthusiast so he fed my addiction to a great extent.
Back in '84 he bought a new 944 lux, the car is still in the family today and was the first performance car I drove. It is a fantastic car in terms of handling and build quality, and turns heads still wherever it goes.
When I finally reached a position in life where I could afford to run a quick car.
I looked hard at the new carrera. But I had aquired 2 kids in the meantime and needed more room in my car than a 911 would afford. I then considered having an Impreza WRX (£20k) and another performance car, again i looked at the 911. But a £20k 911 is something I am not in a position to contemplate. I don't know how cars work - I am completely reliant on garages to keep my car in working order. I enjoy driving but not tinkering. I therefore buy the newest and most solid car I can find.
In the end I sold my standard WRX and bought a 22B UK - an ideal compromise for me, tonnes of performance, a huge amount of character, room for 2 kids and their junk and one of the most exclusive cars on the road. :-)
The arguements are stupid, you guys love your classic Porsches, we love our modern Japanese rally car replicas.
I'm sure none of us would say no to a new 911 if offered at the same price as a WRX or 20 year old 911 .


Matt H - you continue to ignore the facts put in front of you - the invite to the Porsche club was made by a Toyota Supra owner, not a Subaru owner. And the aim was to have as many different Marques participate as possible. In the UK the rivalry you speak of does not exist between Porsche and Subaru enthusiasts - the cars apeal to wildly different people.
Regards,
Charles Mallion

Oh, and to show no hard feelings, here's another source of animations.


[This message has been edited by chuckster (edited 06-15-2000).]

[This message has been edited by chuckster (edited 06-15-2000).]

"RarlyL8 -This comparison was thrust upon us by Matt Holcomb, who compared his 24 year old 911 to our brand new cars, and told us we were idiots for making our choice."

Just for the record, I never said that, nor did I imply it. That is a perverted and paranoid perception. The reason for my ScoobyNet incursion was to try and see if this hostile rivalry that exists between 911 and WRX owners is spreading to other corners of the globe. That's all. Perhaps my approach was all-wrong, but it did reveal many things, and came close to confirming my suspicions.

And yes, I got caught out for mistaking a Supra owner for what I thought was a trouble-making Subaru owner. Then again, ScoobyNet is a forum FOR Subaru owners, but obviously not as specifically populated as I was led to believe.

To all Pelican forum members who own 911's, to understand where I’m coming from, you really need to spend some time in Melbourne in your 911. Yes, it’s really that bad.





[This message has been edited by Matt Holcomb (edited 06-15-2000).]

Initial post by Matt:
Dave,
How did you go?

I suspect they rejected your offer. You're not the first WRX owner that has tried (in vain) to arrange an inter-club event expressly for the purpose (I presume) of trying to show-up a marque, in this case Porsche, with a car you assume to be a superior, or at least, a car that in theory should be superior, if only you could prove it!

Dave, these Porsche guys can see right through your veil, and believe me when I say this, they are not running scared, they just (accurately) perceive you WRX hoons as the unsafe loons you are!

This is what happens when an irresponsible car manufacturer makes a recklessly potent buzz box accessible to the lowest common denominator, in terms of the car's ‘entry fee’, and its performance capabilities.

This bulletin board and your on-road manners is the only proof I need, not some unwieldy WRX slamming into the back of my car at the END of a 200+ km/h straight!


Matt Holcomb
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1974 911 Carrera 2.7

'lowest common denominator', 'they just (accurately) perceive you WRX hoons as the unsafe loons you are!' - paranoid? Me?
We just don't have this problem here Matt, take a look at entry lists for track days, and the varied membership of the BBS's themselves. You might also want to visit BBS.22B.COM, where all marques are welcome.

I agree though, you didn't initially say the car was inadequate, just implied the drivers were.
It seems though, that you are more interested in propogating the rivalry than anything else - hence your post here on the Porsche BBS and your attempt to begin a discussion on the UK scooby BBS. Doing a search through the UK bbs does not support your assumptions - it is rare that any comparisons are made inter-marque, appart from between Subaru and Mitsubishi, 2 cars which were designed to compete from inception- so you deliberately tried to provoke us. Nice one, on a diplomacy par with the Subaru guy in Aussie who took out the newspaper ad you mentioned.
Charles

Chuckster,

When a car as potent as the WRX does not demand that a driver attain a level of skill that’s on par with its performance potential, or that is required to extract this potential performance, then you run the risk of cultivating a reckless driver in behaviour and/or attitude.

Couple that with a purchase price and maintenance costs set for a mass-market, and it can be a recipe for disaster.

I just think that if a car delivers thrills without requiring respect from the driver in return, then you RISK cultivating a type of driver who is disrespectful of other road users and their cars of choice, and as a result, this type of driver ultimately become abusive of their car's potential, leading directly to a false sense of invincibility, both of their abilities and the abilities of the car.

The thing about a Porsche is it has usually earned a driver’s/owner’s respect long before they’re in a position to buy one, and if not, it will quickly demand respect, but long before it becomes dangerous.

Matt



[This message has been edited by Matt Holcomb (edited 06-15-2000).]