Fitting Doors

[Mike O'Meara]

I am installing fenders from a '70 on my '72 and find that the gap between the fender and the door is fine along the lower and upper edge but seems way out in the area that curves into the top of the door/fender. Sorry, tried a pic but file size was too large. (How do you do that, btw?) Did the factory use lead here, and if so, was it on the fender or on the door? I can't imagine there is enough area for the lead to hold on the fender edge.

[Mike Kast]

you have to small down the picture with your own photo software I think. I have to anyway. I can save it a few different sizes.

[Zeke]

I must be tired (I am) because I can't understand what you are saying. You don't put lead on the edge of the door if that's what you want to know.

[Mike O'Meara]

Okay, here's a try at a pic. Yeah, I know, it was hard to describe what I mean.

[Zeke]

I think some one has taken some off the door to fit it to a fender pushed back. You can weld up some metal on the edge of the door. One way to do it is to lay a welding rod on the edge and braze it on. Or MIG.

[Series900]

oem 911 parts are pretty damn good tolerance and should not need any adding to the edges for a fit unless they have been ground by a moron. to grind any back on the door they would have ground thru the shell, to grind any off the fender, the crimped edge would have split, and would show evidence of a reworked area. Your picture only points out the wideportion of the gap. this is suspect to me. first what is the overall condition of the car? does it appear that rockers or 1/4s have been damaged or replaced? these are the unmovable lines to which the door is first aligned to. once these lines have been ascertained, the fender is bolted pushed and prodded to fit the door gap. good used parts need little coaxing, previously damaaged/repaired parts may not fit due to improper tub structural repairs from the car they came from, and to make up for the ill repair, the fender door could have been, I say could, ground and welded in some inept form of bodywork. I have never seen a good 911 door/fender that needed extra edge welded, or major grinding for fitment. only poor structural repairs would warrant that kind of hack. 356's or xke's now those door skins/fenders/bonnets needed all kinds of metalworking skills to get good lines. take a torch to the body gaps and watch the lead drip away! NOT on a 911, factory seams leaded on a 911 are upper corner of the 1/4 window at the top of the door, just below the drip rail, thats the original 1/4 panel seam. also both coupes and targas have lead at the top and bottom corners of the engine lid perimeter. Targa will have a bit at the top of the w/s frame. lead seam at the rocker 1/4 seam in front of the torsion bar hole. Other than that very little lead used. I suggest a little detective work first, did you have good lines before? Does the car exhibit any types of previous repair? do the parts you are fitting show signs of repair?

[Mike O'Meara]

Thanks, Damon. That info helps. The car is very straight, and the original fenders fit fine. Other than rust in the original fenders and bubbling in the door bottoms on both sides, the panels show no signs of damage or repair. Both sides have the same gap. After I took the pic, I went out and bolted the fender up to the fender support and it did seem to draw up better than in the pic, tho it is still wider than it should be. I welded in new fender supports and maybe I need to work on them in order to draw that area in more. At least I now Know I shouldn't have to do any body work, just more muscling and pushing to get it to draw up tight. Thanks!

[Series900]

Mike, that would explain it. the new fender supports would change your lines, although it is an easy part to weld on, absolute original placement can be difficult. Bolting the fender support to the fender, then bolting the fender along the hood seam helps but will not ensure that the seam of the fender support fits the wheelhouse perfectly either. Its one of those judgements you learn after doing it a few times. The fender can be bolted for a good hood line, and as I mentioned coaxed along for a fit from the cowl down. Or it may be you need to start at the cowl and get the door line first. Its just fitment time. With the fender support now in place, look in with the fender on, and check out the internal gaps, a little tweaking along the fender support you welded on will get you some clearance, once the fender can be pushed back for a door line, tighten the hood line, then draw up the bolts down the fender support, the bottom of 911 fenders can be a pain in that they may curl in, and not follow the straightness of the rocker, inserting a washer as a shim, with strip caulk along the seams, can alleviate this curl. I have found OEm placement of such washers, but few in far between. 911 parts were/are built with a great tolerance. The japanese really have set a standard in body parts the last 15 years, between computer design and high quality tolerances, there is no room for stuctural error. the foundation has to be right. Domestic production has followed the standards set. As i mentioned 911 parts were pretty damn good from the start, take a door from a 65 and bolt it to a 93, and those door gaps are the same. Porsche worked out a manufacturing tolerance and stuck to it, there is very little hinge movement for the door compared to the ROW auto construction. Thats what made a porsche then, unlike today, the body construction of 996's is now very similar to the japanese product, and is really apparent when serious damage occurs. In the wrecking yard new cars can appear all the same as the front ends get ripped off, and spot welds ripped apart, the manufacturing techniques are now very similar across the board. But thats why we live in the past and love the 911, it was a higher standard then, and still meets them today.

[john70t]

It looks like the fenders/hood could be raised with shims and moved back if possible, and/or the door lowered and moved forward.

It probably depends on the rear and lower door gaps whether to add metal or just move around. The B-pillar and the windshield wiper panel are the immovable points to work off of.

[Series900]

quote: "whether to add metal"
repeat, adding metal is an inept form of bodywork. the parts did not need these methods from the start. the foundation to where the parts are bolted has to be with in tolerance. Mike now states he replaced the fender support panel, and now has difficulty mating the parts correctly. the "foundation", fender attachment panel, is off, therefore he has the trouble fitting. the door and fender fit before, the change is the welded panel he put on. by tweaking the fender attachmnet panel he will regain the clearance he lost.

[john70t]

"adding metal is an inept form of bodywork."
Thanks, you're very correct. I was absentmindedly thinking of a car I had seen where the frame had buckled in the center and been welded and the doors wouldn't close. I'll try to read gooder.

[Series900]

John, not trying to beat you up

mechanics and body guys get lumped into the theiving bastard category for such ill methods. Just like lawyers cops and judges, even x-wives their good when their good , and damned otherwise.

Been in the autobody trade a long time, I learned from some good guys and some hacks. I remember a trans am hit hard in the nose, the frame did not get pulled correctly, and this guy added metal to the fender as described above, total hack job. I learned from him, learned thats not the right way! I always new the celette bench was the foundation to which to perform repairs on, the jigs are a true measurement, they bolt into all the suspension mounts. once this is done, you can start working out the the kinks of the bolt on parts and the flange areas that these bolt to. Ofcousre if you start elongating holes and adding shims, the unskilled laborer shows his lack of talent. And yes I have made my mistakes, I remember the first set of rockers I put on a targa 20+ years ago, I left the jackstands on the torsion tube, when it was all done and back on the suspension, the door just did not close right boss:what happened? me: i dunno I learned, cut em off and did it again, never made that type of mistake again. Utilizing the celette makes for perfect alignment, OEM quality.

[Mike O'Meara]

FWIW: Door gaps on top, bottom and rear of car are good, except for a very close gap at one point where the window frame meets the roof, just aft of the vent window. So the only issue is the fender and that is affected by the support panel. Here's another factor to throw into the mix: the car is on jack stands. The fronts are under the forwardmost points of the torsion bar and the rears are under the sway bar brackets. Bearing in mind this is a relatively clean car (rockers and floor are solid) could the body be flexing and throwing the fender/door joint out of spec? Do these bodies flex much? Damon, your experience is appreciated!

[Series900]

Oh boy , Mike , rule one, all body fitting is to be done with car loaded via suspension. OK to use jackstands if they are placed under the front ball joints and under the rear shocks loading the swingarm only! Any other method of support other than the celette rack and jigs is suspect to flex the shell in some other fashion other than a properly loaded suspension, i.e. on its wheels. Even a coupe will distort/flex if the jackstands are located on the torsion tube and the steering rack crossmember.

[Mike O'Meara]

After my last post I went out and took the car off the jack stands and things lined up better. You answered my next question - can the car be supported under the suspension. I am in the process of replacing the driver's lockpost, and was thinking I'd better get the car off the stands before making any fitments. I presume, based on Stoddard catalog warnings, that this operation is a difficult one, so I'm trying to be very careful and take things slowly. I drilled out the spot welds in the fender/lockpost seam and the curve and lip of the fender remain in good shape, so I'm hoping to fit the new lockpost in, scribe a line on the extra material on the outer edge of the lockpost by following the door edge, and then plug weld the fender to the lockpost. Sound about right? Thanks

[Series900]

All bodywork should be done supported on suspension or facsimle of i.e. the celette rack. greatly reduces the problems you encounterd.

make sure you remove all the metal along the b-pillar where the rubber seal glues in, helps in proper location of the lockpost. Utilizing the door will get you close in trimming the lockpost, but it will still need that final fit. Surprised you have no issues with the bottom of the lockpost/rocker area just behind the 1/4, thats usually a mess also. And then there are the rocker support panels that weld on to the inner wheelhouse which close off the back of the rocker. My next bit of advise, fit trim fit trim fit, when close, tack it, install door latch and make sure the lockpost is where it is supposed to be.

[Mike O'Meara]

Yes I sure did have problems with the rearmost section of the rocker where it submarines under the 1/4. I've already replaced that section and a small part of the wheelhouse support. Today, with the car supported on the suspension, I trimmed and fitted the lockpost with 3 small sheetmetal screws. The 1/4 panel/door alignment is very good (this time; this is the second lockpost, the first I trimmed too much.) I also have a small section of lower 1/4 to replace, from the joint on the rocker back about 8". I bought Stoddards 1/4 repair piece and am just using the section I need rather than trying to shape a flat piece of metal. I haven't made the final cut to butt weld that section, but everything is held in place with screws and or locking c clamps and it all lines up very nicely. I'm pleasantly surprised. I'll take a few days to stare at it before I go any further. Thanks again.

[ocjason]

Can you post some pictures, I am trying to do the same repair and pics would help greatly. Thanks

[Mike O'Meara]

Here are a few, I've got to run right now but I'll try to post some more with explanations tomorrow. These are in reverse order, but they show the trial fitting, the tear-out of the bad lockpost, treatment of the hidden areas, and the start of welding. HTH

[Mike O'Meara]

These go further back to the repair of the rear edge of the rocker. The last is a picture of the finished panel repair after leading.