Schroth 4-point harness. Any thoughts?

Moses · 10-16-2006, 07:36 PM

It is designed to be used without a sub belt so it looks like a natural choice for people using stock seats.

I will be using a Brey-Krause harness guide and the B-K harness anchors. The B-K harness anchors allow you to keep the stock belts in the car.

The Schroth harness comes with snap-in connectors, so I can take the harnesses out of the car while driving on the street.

What do you think?

JonT · 10-16-2006, 07:51 PM

Hi Moses--I've recently added a BK Harness bar to my targa and I personally would go with 5 pt (which is what I have) because it keeps your lap belt from riding up your waistline when you tighten the shoulder belts. You dont need the sub belt hole-just mount under the seat and pull the belt up through your legs to the camlock. You will love the harness on the track. I too have the stock belts to use when I'm just driving on the street.

2.7RACER · 10-16-2006, 08:33 PM

Moses,
You need the sub belt for the reasons JonT pointed out.
Plus the sub belt will keep you down in the seat so you don't bang against the roof and break your neck.
The idea is to keep you in the seat, up, side ways or forward. Down in the seat.

Steve@Rennsport · 10-16-2006, 10:13 PM

Those harnesses MUST be used with a sub belt,.......its summarily unsafe to do so unless you had the ASM version of this setup.

As a Schroth distributor/installer, we are responsible for ensuring that these harnesses are installed and used correctly, especially after the tragic death of Dale Earnhardt Sr (caused by lap belt failure).

If you want 4pt harnesses, use the Street Harnessbelts (these are ASM).

Chilling in VT · 10-17-2006, 02:23 AM

I was under the impression that using a 5 point system without a subhole in the seat bottom woul actually be more dangerous. At my last de, they had suggested using 6 point belts. The bottom ones mount either along side the lap belt or close by (determined by your sanctioning body) and then lay on the seat. You sit on them and then bring them up to the center latch. I think this would be safer. FWIW I am going through the same process. I know that I was sliding around quite a bit with the stock 3-point belts.
Joe

Dixie · Dixie's Garage

I think you should buy a six-point harness.

tonythetarga · 05:46 AM

To say you do not need to have the sub strap go through the seat is seriously BAD advice. If you are using a 5 point harness, the substrap MUST go through the seat. If you are using harnesses, five or six point, you should only use them with racing seats and a roll bar.
Do a search of this topic and do some homework. This set up is not to be taken lightly.
There are some Shroth 4 points that are designed to be used with stock seats but they don't look like the one pictured. They should connect into the existing seat belt snaps (front and back seat) AND you need seats that have a gap between the top of the seat and the headrest. Porsche, with the exception of some of the early seats, do not have the type of seats that work with this type of harness.
You should contact Joe Marko at HMS Motorsports in Boston and have a discussion about harnesses, seats and Hans devices. There are some very compelling video demonstrations that shows you exactly what happens in a variety of configurations and the difference in the level of safety when you are properly protected.

Moses · 10-17-2006, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve@Rennsport
Those harnesses MUST be used with a sub belt,.......its summarily unsafe to do so unless you had the ASM version of this setup.

As a Schroth distributor/installer, we are responsible for ensuring that these harnesses are installed and used correctly, especially after the tragic death of Dale Earnhardt Sr (caused by lap belt failure).

If you want 4pt harnesses, use the Street Harnessbelts (these are ASM).

I was unclear in my post. The belts pictured are the ASM belts. From the Schroth website;

The Profi II ASM is designed to be used as a four point system. For this reason it is perfect for use in Driver Education cars or any other application where stock seats are retained. A seat that was not originally desiged for use with a racing restraint should never be modified to accept an sub strap.

Steve, I'm keeping my stock seats. Are these ASM belts a reasonable option?

gchappel · 06:22 AM

My understanding, as little as it is, is these belts are designed as 4point, and don't require an antisub belt. I have seen these in a car on the track- it seems the design somehow allows the left belt to stretch a little more- actually what appears to be stitching tears away. This causes the body to rotate slightly and keeps it from submarining. I would have to really look at their test data before I would put them in my car.
You can use 6points without cutting a new hole in the seat, some systems attach the 2 ends of the sub belt at or near the rear belt attachments. Don't try using a 5 point and wrapping the sub belt around the front of the seat- that is worse than nothing- I did try that once.
We are all looking at these alternative belt systems as we think they are safer than the stock belts in the car. Just remember the stock belts have actually been tested- and a lot of the jerryrigged systems I see in cars I suspect are actually less safe than the stock system. Just do the install carefully, and then get it checked by someone that understands installs.
One last side note- the scca makes us change all our belts every 2 years- quoting data that belts significantly weaken over time. How old are the belts in our cars?
Gary

304065 · 10-17-2006, 06:29 AM

Doc, I have the highest respect for your enthusiasm, but my advice is to stick with a five-point and get yourself a ReCaro with correct routing for the belts. You need a dedicated seat because maintaining the correct geometry of pull, and thus the geometry of your spine, is the entire point of an improved restraint system. Also, the belts don't hold you in the seat while cornerning, the seat does. Consider also investing in the HANS device, I got mine last season and I love it.

Also, the belts should be mounted with the Schroth hardware, no hardware-store eyebolts, and large washers using holes drilled in the body of the car. Why are you keeping it so nice, so the next owner can enjoy it more?

I bought my Schroth ("Shroot") harnesses from Dr. Ing. Steve Weiner and I have been happy with them since the minute I spoke with Steve on the phone. They have done a fine job of keeping my ass firmly planted in the last 16 club races.

Moses · 10-17-2006, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by john_cramer
...stick with a five-point and get yourself a ReCaro with correct routing for the belts. You need a dedicated seat because maintaining the correct geometry of pull, and thus the geometry of your spine, is the entire point of an improved restraint system.

I definitely see your point. I had a set of Recaro pole position seats in the car, but they could not fit a harness safely. I have a long torso, so the seatback holes for the harness belts are way too low. The harness belts would enter the seat about 6 inches below my shoulder then travel up and over. Probably not a good idea. I have checked a few other race seats and they have the same problem.

Steve@Rennsport · 10-17-2006, 07:15 AM

Moses:

Mister Cramer's sound advice is, once again, spot on.,...

I've seen enough cars turn "turtle" at DE events that I strongly recommend good safety gear whenever one is on the track and driving above 5/10ths. As they say: "***** happens" and you do not want to visit the ER or worse.

For this reason, I do recommend a proper seat and harness to achieve this end (HANS cannot hurt either). Given the variation in each person's proportions, seat selection is an individual decision and you should try several ones to ensure that the harnesses work at correct angles; Recaro & Sparco are the best, IMHO.

You cannot safely use ANY integral headreat seat (OEM Porsche) with shoulder harnesses since there is no safe way to retain the shoulder straps in place. Schroth is VERY specific about this.

If you elect to use a 4, 5, or 6 pt harnesses, you must use a seat with a movable headrest or one with slots for the shoulder straps. My best advice would be to start the process of sitting in different seats to find what fits you.

You may use the Profi-II ASM in any configuration, but I'd STRONGLY recommend adding sub belts for safety. Almost every seat that you'll choose has options for the slots,...

LeeH · 10-17-2006, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moses
A seat that was not originally desiged for use with a racing restraint should never be modified to accept an sub strap.

Any idea why this is? I bought an older set of OMP seats and added a sleeve for the sub belt. I'm having trouble understanding how this could be a problem.

304065 · 10-17-2006, 08:17 AM

Scary pic, Moses. No gloves, no neck collar, no targa roof, no arm restraints!

Well, no need to embarrass you in public, you are asking the right questions and going down the right path. So here's my unsolicited advice:

1) Targa roof ON during all track events. It's not a ton of protection, but it's better than nothing.

2) HANS device for the driver. The prices of these have come down to the point where you can easily afford them. G_d forbid, if you ever had a spinal injury, would you fork over $1000 to have the Spirit of Ferdinand come down to Earth and Make It Go Away? Sure you would. So save him the trouble, spend the money now.

3) HANS dictates choice of seat. There are many, many fine seats out there that can accomodate your every anatomical requirement. ReCaro offers an SPG HANS model that is designed to work with the HANS.

4) Harnesses. Using the HANS, some recommend slightly thinner shoulder straps so they will remain on the Device in an impact. The Device has some friction material where the harnesses contact it, and a slight lip, to retain the device on your shoulders. Check with your local scruitineers to determine the optimal width. I use mine with 3" belts per PCA club racing spec.

5) Rollbar. Now that you are rigidly upright in the seat, a good rollbar, padded with correct SFI rated high density foam, will provide some peace of mind. DAS makes a good one, and the TRE offering is similarly impressive. A rollbar is also critical to maintaining the correct angle of pull of the belts over your shoulders, and gives you a place to mount the . . .

6) Seat back brace. Minimum 12" square, mounted to the back of the seat and the rollbar. This keeps the seat back from fracturing, and your spine along with it, if you back it in. 911's back it in A LOT.

7) Fire System. Now that you are strapped in, you can't easily egress the car in the event of a rollover. An AFFF fire system, equipped with dischargers ON THE DRIVER, is inexpensive protection.

8) Gloves! These aren't just for gripping the wheel when you are sweating: in a fire you do NOT want to burn your hands, and your hands are what you will use to egress the car! So inexpensive, you can buy a pair and barely notice.

Others may have input on the subject, but the whole point is that these elements work together as a SYSTEM of enhanced protection that is required when the risk increases. Be safe and have fun-- Always!

Moses · 10-17-2006, 08:53 AM

I guess I'm screwed!

No way the targa top goes on with a helmet. Not a chance. I can't find a racing seat that will fit lower than stock, so I guess I need a new car...

gchappel · 10-17-2006, 08:56 AM

John, you mention no neck collar. Do you advocate their use? I have heard some reports that they can actually be worse than nothing. The collar elevates the "pivot" point, but isn't actually dense enough to control head motion. Any thoughts?
I have used a Hans device myself for almost 4yrs now. I am at $250/yr now, and price per use keeps going down.
Gary

JP911 · JP911's Garage

Moses-
You are in the Bay Area, correct? You should check out my setup with 6-point belts. Nothing beats trying things out before you purchase. Shoot me a PM or email me. I'm in the east bay. You could always join us for the annual Marin oyster run this Sunday and check things out then.
-Jon

Moses · 10-17-2006, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JP911
Moses-
You are in the Bay Area, correct? You should check out my setup with 6-point belts. Nothing beats trying things out before you purchase. Shoot me a PM or email me. I'm in the east bay. You could always join us for the annual Marin oyster run this Sunday and check things out then.
-Jon

Thanks. What kind of seats/harness are you using?

tonythetarga · 10-17-2006, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moses
I guess I'm screwed! No way the targa top goes on with a helmet. Not a chance. I can't find a racing seat that will fit lower than stock, so I guess I need a new car...

There is hope!!!
When I put in my racing seats in I gained at least three inches of headroom in a coupe. The Targa has more headroom to start with
so gaining even more clearance is possible.

Remember that racing seats and harnesses also work properly and safely when there is a rollbar installed. If you are not prepared to do all that, then you have to rethink what you want to do.
I have seen where some folks, just use a racing lapbelt for the hips to prevent sliding around, and then use the factory three point with the stock seats. That doesn't fix all your exposures but it is a start.

Moses · 10-17-2006, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tonythetarga
There is hope!!!
When I put in my racing seats in I gained at least three inches of headroom in a coupe.

What seats? How did you mount them?