inner races won't seat

terryb · 10-22-2006, 04:38 PM

So I put on my Betty Crocker apron yesterday and baked my rotor/hubs @ 300F for 30'. I was able to easily punch out all the old races--thanks to Pelicanites for the tip. Popped them back in the oven and then was able to pound in the frozen new outer races. Hooray! Back in the oven again. But this time, even with lots of banging, I can't get the inner races to seat all the way. They're about 1/16" - 1/8" out and they appear straight.

I used what I think is a BFH--a 6 lb sledgehammer, beating on a big socket that's slightly smaller than the race, but they didn't budge.

Today I picked up a set of Lisle race inserts from Pep Boys thinking that it might allow a more even distribution of impact but no change. I'm afraid to hit it any harder.

So then I got a 12mm grade 5 cap bolt with fine threads, washers and nut, and using the Lisle inserts tried to compress it into place by tightening the bolt. Also no luck.

Ideas? Find someone with a hydraulic press? Keep baking and sledgehammering the *****e out of it?

MotoSook · 10-22-2006, 05:07 PM

Get it back out. I bet are working against an aluminum ridge now. Heat it and see if it will drop out, or press it out while hot with the bearing press. If no ridge, you are safe..heat and chill and retry.

terryb · 10-22-2006, 05:25 PM

Thank you Souk, although not the diagnosis I was hoping for. If there is a ridge, does that mean new hubs?

MotoSook · 10-22-2006, 05:58 PM

Depends on how bad it is. You might be able to use 400 and 800 grit sand paper to clean and smooth it. Let's start from the beginning...and see what you have. A used hub can probably be had for $75.

terryb · 10-22-2006, 06:26 PM

Okay, sounds like a reasonble plan, and I'm in need of one--my car being up on the lift for the last 3 weeks is driving me crazy!

MotoSook · 10-22-2006, 06:30 PM

You are better off than those of us in the cold, Terry. I've got a car that's on a 2 year paint job!

And soon I won't be able to drive or ride the other toys because of the snow and salt...

...another week on jack stands in Cali would be heaven to some

Take the race off and see what you have...

terryb · 10-22-2006, 07:02 PM

A 2 year paint job?!! Holy Moly. Okay, Souk you've put things in proper perspecitve for me. A virtual slap. Thanks, I needed that.

Wil Ferch · 10-23-2006, 07:22 AM

Somehow...the words "banging"...."BFH"...and "bearings" just make me shudder !

Do people understand the enormous "point-loads" imposed when you bang on bearings?? Should always be pressed...gently...IMHO......or find a way where this works.

- Wil

Zeke · 10-23-2006, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wil Ferch
Somehow...the words "banging"...."BFH"...and "bearings" just make me shudder !

Do people understand the enormous "point-loads" imposed when you bang on bearings?? Should always be pressed...gently...IMHO......or find a way where this works.

- Wil

Agreed. A little finesse is required. If things don't go in with just some authoritative taps, stop and find out why. The ridge may have formed as a result of galling as the race was being driven. I think a little lube is in order before installing the race. Even if it appears to melt. Did you do that?

Gunter · Gunter's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by Wil Ferch
Somehow...the words "banging"...."BFH"...and "bearings" just make me shudder !

Do people understand the enormous "point-loads" imposed when you bang on bearings?? Should always be pressed...gently...IMHO......or find a way where this works.

- Wil

Same here. BFH is not needed here.
These bearing races are just a slight press-fit.
With heated hubs, and cold races, it is essential to press them in square with a little high-temp antiseize lube.
In fact, if you have a press, it can be done cold (With lube!)
It helps to have a piece of pipe with the right diameter but, I have done a few without. The trick is to make sure the race sits square to the hub and use lube.
Inspect the seat for any distortion/galling and try again without BFH.

Bentley SC Manual describes it pretty good on 401-14 including the torqueing procedure for the new bearing; they don't mention any BFH.

terryb · 10-23-2006, 09:36 AM

Souk, Wil and milt, thank you very much for posting. Since this is the first time I've ever attempted anything like this I very much appreciate all your advice. I did many searches on bearings and races and it seemed most people were recommending the heat the hub, freeze the race, pound them in method. (And so you guys don't think I was doing a ring-the-bell carnival game, the hub was on wood on the ground, I was sitting next to it and before I gave up, I was raising the hammer about even with my head, maybe slightly above.)

I did not use any lube in there. Would the packing grease I'm going to use work (Mobil 1 synthetic) or should I use something else like NAPA SilGlide?

I don't have a press, but I could probably find a shop who could press them in for me. In this case, everything will be at room temperature--is that okay?

Is it odd that both inner races both hung up at the same spot? I wish I had taken a picture of the old races before they came out to see if they were seated all the way.

Thanks again.

Cory M · 10-23-2006, 09:39 AM

I put the races on dry ice or in the freezer to shrink them down a bit rather than heating the hubs, things are easier to handle that way.

Thinking of you hammering away on those aluminum hubs is making me cringe. You really need to use a press to do this right. You should be able to find a brake shop or a machine shop with a press that can install your races for a small fee.

terryb · 10-23-2006, 10:32 AM

Gunter, I promise, no more gorilla with a BFH! Doesn't the Bentley specify a tool to put the races in, VW733-i I think it is? I couldn't find that tool so I got the Lisle race inserts that someone here used successfully, but couldn't get them to budge with that either.

Cory, thanks for the dry ice tip.

Okay, so my plan of attack is:

Heat the hubs and carefully punch out the races
Inspect for ridges and if found, try to smooth them with 400 - 800 grit sandpaper
Freeze the races in baggies and put in a cooler with blue ice or dry ice.
Lube the hub cylinder with a little Mobil 1 high temp bearing grease
Take the hubs and frozen races to a shop to press them in

Sound good?

sammyg2 · 10:54 AM

The amount of interference between the OD of the race and the ID of the hub is probably less than .001"
That means if you take the race to below freezing and the hub to 200 degrees f, the race should FALL into the hub. I anything a light tap with the end of the handle should be enough. A large hammer should not come into play.
It is probably buggered or dinged or something. take it all back apart, put the hammer down and re-inspect the bore. I bet you will find out what is causing the problem. It might be out of round and you weouldn't be able to tell that without a snap gage and an OD micrometer, but I doubt that's the problem.

Superman · 10-23-2006, 11:01 AM

In my experience, frozen races just FALL into place, particualrly if the hub is heated.

Cory M · 10-23-2006, 11:02 AM

In my experience the frozen races won't just fall into place (maybe if you heat the hubs too), but they will slide in easily on the press. The biggest problem is the race binding in the bore because it isn't straight, that's another advantage of the press- it is more controlled than just pounding it in and you will know whether or not the race is aligned properly based on how much force it is taking to slide it in.

terry - I don't use any lube on the hub bores or see any real reason to. On a press they should slide in pretty easily.

terryb · 10-23-2006, 11:16 AM

I was so looking forward to the frozen races *dropping in* and when that didn't happen I figured I must've been moving too slowly. Since it was my first time I was paranoid and wanted to make sure things were square so I stopped several times to eyeball it from the top and sides.

For those who experience the frozen race practically falling in, how many times has the race been replaced in that particular hub? Is it possible that multiple R&R's may slightly open up the cylinder?

terryb · 10-23-2006, 11:20 AM

Cory, what kind of press are you using? I took a look at Harbor Freight's presses yesterday but don't really know what consitutes a good press other than obvious build quality features (which these seemed to be lacking).

Thanks.

MotoSook · 10-23-2006, 11:22 AM

I've heated several hubs with an Oxy-Acet torch and dropped in chilled races. I wouldn't say frozen, but put in the freezer for 15 minutes or so while I prep the hub and heat it.

Even with heating of the hub, I will sometimes drop the race into the hob a little cocked and it will catch. I will them have to heat a little more to get the race to fall back out.

I've since machined a generic bearing press (the kind that they sell for guys with BFH) from NAPA to make it a little easier to put a cold race into a hot hub without a press or manual force...makes for quick work.

terryb · 10-23-2006, 11:53 AM

Souk, even with my hubs at 300 degrees and the races sitting in the freezer for 30' they immediately caught at the very top of the hub and I was trying to be very careful to make sure they were square. I'm jealous that yours fall almost all the way in!

Can you describe your press? Or do you have any pictures?