V8 Porsche Supercar

In case anyone missed it, Porsche will produce a 700HP supercar for 2003 and show it in January at the Detroit show. Codename S1, the twin turbocharged 5.4L 32 valve V8 will be mounted midship, based on the 1998 GT1. The engine is based on the Cayenne sport/ute's 4.5L V8. Guess the SUV turned out to be good for something afterall.

Does anyone on the board have a v8 conversion kit installed in their porsche? I actually thought about doing this to my car when I first bought it. I found a company called renegade hybrids
http://www.renegadehybrids.com/

that could supply necessary parts. However, after writing and calling them for some info/price quotes, I became weary of their service and products. Anyway, some may consider it "butchering" a 911 to install a chevy 350, but you could theoretically create an inexpensive supercar. Just a thought.

Bill


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William Armentrout
1973 911T
2.7 carerra rs specs
www.geocities.com/william_armentrout

RarelyL8- only 700hp out of a 4 valve V8 TT...are they really trying? heh heh

s

Bill you may want to look in the archives for a thread called "350 hybrid conversion" some of the comments made me laugh.

[This message has been edited by H2O911 (edited 07-11-2000).]

The (tactical) decision made by RENEGADE HYBRIDS to try and create the impression at their web site that ALL Porsche engines are under-engineered and unreliable for the purpose of selling conversion kits for prehistoric iron block pickup engines is abominable, contemptible and offensive.

I don't know about anyone else but I happen to believe that the 911's flat-six is the reason the 911 is so revered and endeared, with its shape combined with its litheness, alacrity, and overall feeling of animality coming in a close second. A 911 ceases to be a 911 when a Chevy V8 finds its way into the engine bay; it becomes compromised and bastardized; it's no longer a 911. The 2.7 MFI Carrera RS motor is the ONLY reason why I bought my latest 911, a 1974 (Euro spec) Carrera.

From the RENEGADE HYBRIDS web site:

"A Chevy V8 should provide you well over 100,000 miles of high performance driving with minimal maintenance."

Only 100,000 miles? Well, I suppose that's the best you're gonna get when you consider that Chevy V8's are made with a chisel!

From the RENEGADE HYBRIDS web site:

Q. "Will changing to V8 decrease the value of my 911?

A. No, not if the installation is performed properly."

Who are they ****ing kidding? Ever compared the price of a 911 minus an engine with the price of a very whole 911? A Chevy V8 on its own is worthless, a Chevy V8 in a 911 would be depreciative!

I realise it may be needless of me to do so, but in case there are potential 911 owners browsing the boards, people in danger of being swayed at all by the inane, fallacious, and shameless RENEGADE HYBRIDS propaganda regarding the supposed unreliability of the 911 engine, it would be prudent and dutiful of me to tell the story of the 911 R.

In 1967, a modified 911 S engine was experimentally dropped into a special lightweight 911 with plastic doors, lids and bumpers and perspex side and rear windows standing on a standard but lowered suspension, 6-inch wide rims at the front and 7-inch at the rear with racing tyres all round. The 911 R was born, of which only 20 were made, preventing it from ever being homologated as a GT car. It was officially regarded as a prototype, and could only compete against other prototypes.

The 911 R was a very fast and reliable car which quite unexpectedly took a whole series of international and world records in 1967 at the hands of two very successful Swiss privateers. One record attempt at the Monza banked track saw a Carrera-6 in desperate need of repair, as it could not resist the bashing from the Monza banking. Since all the relevant spares had been used up, the Swiss drivers phoned the factory for help. Ing. Helmuth Bott, who was then chassis development chief, offered them a 911 R which could be readied at short notice. Before final confirmation was given, however, doubts were raised about the 911 R's speed. Bott swiftly convinced the Swiss drivers otherwise, assured by the Porsche engine people that a proper race-prepared unit was available. Only when the engine – the only one available – was in the car did the engine development chief, Ing. Paul Hensler, realise that this was far from being a receworthy engine: it had previously been used for a 100 hours endurance test on the bench, dismantled for inspection and hastily put back together as it was – not even with care, as it was not supposed to be used for racing at all! But time for the availability of the track was running very short and the car was nevertheless driven to Monza overnight, heavily laden with spares. On the next day the run started and the car eventually bettered five world records and 14 international 2 litre class records up to 20,000kms with an engine that had already done the equivalent on the test bed before!



[This message has been edited by Matt Holcomb (edited 07-12-2000).]

Wow!...A chisel?...Really? You must be kidding... and they still run? Now that is impressive!

Just pulling your chain...have a nice day

s

Matt, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.

j/k man...but in the case of a shell car with no engine, why not? I'm not going to sing about how great it is...but it would be something to do if you happened to have a small-block V8 sitting around.

Oh, and I really doubt Porsche would make a V8...if anything, an 8-cyl boxer engine perhaps...although the 928 was a v8, hmm...

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Mark Szabo
1986 911 Targa 3.2

I guess the swear word filter was turned off during your tirade. If someone wants to put a diesel engine in a 911 it is their business, may not be the most swift move, but it is still their business. Yes, a 911 only has the soul of a 911 when the flat lady sings (pun intended). But you shut your mouth tight when the SB chevy totally annihilates your wheezing butt at the lights. Only a $25,000 modified turbo engine has a prayer of holding its' own with the torque of the $2,500 truck motor. That and cheap maintenance are the selling points for the swap. For sure the disclaimer that the swap won't effect resale value is crap, you've got to use your own judgement a little. I thought about it long and hard, didn't do it only because I couldn't hide the farm truck sound. I am now spending tens of thousands of bucks to get the same performance from a P motor. Second thoughts? You bet.

Nice language. How about you let us build what we want and stop telling us what we should and shouldnt do. This is america. I have happened to build a couple of V8 911's using Renegades kit. Stand back,I even built a 930 with a 400Hp small block that will completely blow doors on most street legal daily driven cars. Please dont knock what you have no clue about. I am a die hard Porsche fan that was asked to do a conversion. Guess what ?? They rock. Plain and simple. When you build a reliable 400hp flat 6 that runs on pump gas for under 4500$ Come see me. I have dealt with 600hp twin turbo's on pump gas. 40K later.

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There are many systems that P-enthusists change in the name of upgrades and while these systems are fair game (a/c, handling mods, chain tensioners, tires, transmissions such as a 915 - G50 etc.) the Engine seems to be totally off limits.

However, if you upgrade the engine from the stock 2.7 boat anchor (that has a limited life span without mods) to a 3.0/3.2/3.6 that seems to be okay.

I bought one with a 2.7 for the purpose of dropping a reliable bastard truck motor in it (if it were not for some parts on order to fix a minor trans problem it would done)

Don't get me wrong, I love the shape and I get a charge out of it ever time I look at it, As many others on the board do when they look at their cars.

I would also challenge anyone that will see my car driving down the highway (930 look with RSR nose) to tell if it is a V8 or F6. The sound is a different story but I do have a single turbo setup that will be going on later after any "bugs" are worked out and that should alter the sound enough.

If I sell sure I will take a loss, but it is what I wanted to do. Thanks to everyone that is at least tolerant, if not some what supportive, this board has been fun for me the past 4 months.

s (77 911s V8)

Disclaimer: You're under no obligation. No salesman will call. No one will sneak into your garage and change your engine without your permission

"However, if you upgrade the engine from the stock 2.7 boat anchor (that has a limited life span without mods) to a 3.0/3.2/3.6 that seems to be okay."

I strongly object to the stock 2.7 being referred to as a boat anchor. While it is true that a CIS 2.7 is a 911 powerplant that requires the most attention, that's not to say it's useless! All of the issues surrounding CIS 2.7’s can be traced to premature fatigue of the magnesium crankcase caused by the emissions lowering thermal reactors fitted as standard to all US delivered CIS 2.7’s. The shortened lifespan of a CIS 2.7 is NOT caused by the increased bore and stroke verses magnesium, but is entirely dependent on how long a CIS 2.7 has been running around with the thermal reactors, and in what sort of climate. Beyond that, it's just an issue of fatigue that can befall any 911 motor with a magnesium crankcase at 100,000 miles, or at 300,000 miles. It’s up to the Gods. But as far as I’m concerned, and from what I’ve seen first hand, an MFI or CIS 2.7 has much longer rebuild intervals than a 3.6!

My Euro (RS) spec MFI 2.7 has traveled 280,000kms since new and was only once stripped down (90,000kms ago) by a previous owner strictly for the insertion of high compression pistons. It did not need to be dismantled and rebuilt, although it was the perfect opportunity to perform some preventative surgery! The cases are bone dry, and with the standard trombone oil cooler it runs as cool as a 3.2 by virtue of MFI.

RarlyL8,

As for succumbing to the torque of a Chevy V8 motor, I'd be too happy to watch the smoking dance, knowing that after a couple of stratospheric (7,200rpm) gear changes, the advantages of low-end torque suddenly become moot!

Being somewhat disadvantaged in the low-end torque department, I'm still able to rattle of 0-60mph times in the low 5's, and that's without shredding rubber. But a 911 was not designed for pointless drag racing, just as it wasn’t designed around a breathless V8. I find it hard to believe that a 911 with a Chevy V8 is the best of both worlds. Surely with a much higher center of gravity, a V8 drastically changes a 911’s on road attitude. Come on, that big lump of iron would give a 911 a 70/30 weight ratio, thus making the car quite problematic when it comes to the twisty stuff. Where do you fit the radiator(s)? And what about engine vibration so close to the driving wheels and transmission? How do you get around that? Also, how do you skirt the issue of oil starvation? Without a dry sump your thumping, 400hp V8 911 would eventually be passed by a 110hp 911T!

Matt, I agree with your post, but just thought I'd add a bit:

A v-8 is naturally balanced, and one of the smoothest running engine set-ups given that everything else is the same.

Dry sump? I don't know about that, but I don't think even the latest C-5 vette has that, I do BELIVE that they just put a big A$$ oil pan instead.

Also, some of these "small block" chevy engines are quite light, and may require less maintenance, but hey, it's got high center of gravity, and it doesn't sound anything like a 911! That's what made me like Porsches in the first place! Well, anyway, I wouldn't do it, you end up with a hybrid, you don't have a 911 with more power, that would have a flat six in it! (though most of you will argue it also needs to be air-cooled perhaps).
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

Matt, a little education. A 930 motor weighs 530 pounds. I weighed mine personally so I know this is a fact. A small block chevy can easily be made to weigh less than that. The center of gravity is different and the attitude in the engine bay is different. Both are easily and cheaply compensated for. Also, SBC's have been roadraced forever, so I don't know where the oil starvation issue came from. As for tire smoke - it doesn't happen. With all that weight on the rear axles. You MUST have a good tranny to run ANY hi-po setup. Launch easy, nail it, lift front wheels, redline, repeat. In 10 seconds you hit 100 mph. This is all about money, not power. The cheaper the power the more people can enjoy it. Should everyone have to spend a minimum of $25,000 to achieve super car status? If you want purist bragging rights be my guest. I am paying very dearly for that cool Porsche sound and those awsome flames that blow out the rear when shifting.

I gotta add my $.02 here.. The reason that I bough a 911 in the first place was that I wanted a car that could scoot through mountain passes and had a nice power band higher in the RPM range. If I wanted a Porsche with a vette motor, I would've bought a vette. No doubt, the small block is a good engine, just made for different purposes and different likes.

one other note, Porsche did make a 8 cylinder air cooled engine. It was an experimental unit that they fit in a 914 for some time. I don't remember the displacement or HP, but it sits on an engine stand in the Porsche museum at the factory.

That 8 cylinder air cooled engine was also used in the 907 and 908 race cars. It is most probably the same that was put in the 914 proto.
My $0.02 George

It pisses me off that you guys are fighting over the v8 hybrid issue. The chevy 350 is a great engine. It has been around for years. It has the greatest number of aftermarket parts available. Sure, the porsche 6 is probably better suited for a 911 that the "top heavy" 350, but I see transplanting the v8 into the 911 to be a valid choice. I have to say that from my personal experience, the chevy 350 v8 is a more "bulletproof" engine than the porsche 6. My porsche had 130k(prior to rebuild), and it needed a complete rebuild.

I have to admire those that take on the task of performing the v8 transplant. I am sure that many problems are encountered(where to put the radiator, does the oil pan drag the ground, etc.), and it takes courage and patience to complete this transplant. After the transplant, however, I am sure that a hybrid would never win a porsche concours contest, but the owner would have a kick ass car. How would you like to have a power to weight ratio of 6 or 7 pounds for every horsepower? I'll take mine with a chevy 350 with TPI, aluminum heads, forged aluminum pistons, and a cherry on top!

Grow up and smell the unleaded!

Bill

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William Armentrout
1973 911T
2.7 carerra rs specs
www.geocities.com/william_armentrout

Hmmmmm...we seemed to have touched a nerve here. I'm a hot rodder from way back, not really a Porsche Purist, so take my comments with a grain of salt. I love cars...period. Over the years I've owned just about every type of configuration there is; rear drive, rear-mounted air-cooled flat 4 (VW, 912), rear drive, mid-mounted water-cooled inline 4 (MR2), rear drive, front mounted V8 (Chevy big block, 5.0 Ford), front drive, front mounted water-cooled V6 (and inline 4-both wife's cars), and 4-wheel drive, front mounted water-cooled inline 6 (Jeep). No motorcycles yet-lol. The air-cooleds are efficent, but somewhat limited in ultimate power output (during summer in Texas, espically). The MR2 was a blast to drive-it was much like a big go-cart-just no low end torque to speak of. Of course, the V-8's had no such problem-just ease into the throttle, and suddenly you're doing 70, or 80mph, without even trying-but they hated to turn or stop. The front drivers I regard as nothing but transportation appliances-and remember, I love cars. The inline 6 in the Jeep is a tractor engine, pure and simple-nothing fancy, not a whole lot of power, but it gets the job done. Overall, my favorite (naturally) are the V8's-cheap, simple, torque for days, and god-the sound of a healthy V8 breathing through a good exhaust simply raises the hairs on the back of my neck. My 912 was headed for the scrap heap when I got it, and I'm STILL toying with the idea of putting in a mild V8 (with a stronger trans than the 901 w/ it's weak first gear). Hmmm, I wonder how expensive it would be to swap in a 5.0 into my Cherokee? Argh, argh, argh. We each have our own idea of the "right" car-some guys live for that 7500 rpm shriek of a four-cam Carerra, some for the honk of a turbo waste gate, some for the giant-shove-in-the-back feeling of a V8 off the line-try 'em all, decide what YOU want, and let everybody else do the same--we're all car guys after all, right? And remember the car guy motto-"There is no such thing as TOO much horsepower" (not enough traction, maybe.....)

IMHO every one of you is welcome to modify your car in any way you please. Put a diesel in your 911 if you want. hahahahaha.

If you want a V8 car, perhaps just buying one would make sense. I considered a late Cuda or '68 or '69 Charger when I bought my 911.

I suspect that (except in drag racing) performace will suffer from putting a V8 in a 911. IMHO (and many others'as well) the Porsche Boxer engine is arguably THE automotive engineering masterpiece. THE! Mine is very much de-tuned compared to a race engine, but it conservatively generates 180 HP from 182 cubic inches of displacement.

I guess I'm not so cure what some of you are talking about. I intend to get a half-million miles before I change motors or rebuild. Unfortunately I can only report 150,000 right now.

If Porsche had not already built a 300,000 mile air-cooled 200 hp 200 cu in motor, the world's engineers would unanimously declare it to be IMPOSSIBLE.

Get a Vette, if that's what you want. It won't be a Porsche, though.

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'83 SC

Super and Scott etc.. are right
I reckon a 911 is a 911 because of what it is. Sounds kinda obvious but some people seem to miss the point. Sticking anything other than the Porsche flat six into a 911 doesnt make it a 911 anymore.
Why not just buy a 911 replica and butcher that.
The 911 is a sports car with a racing history, it aint a drag racer.
IMHO anyone that sticks a V8 init should be shot.

The point is:
Do I want a fantastic sports car or do I want a car that burns people up at the lights?
I *know* whats kewl.

BTW
I reckon the discussion that RarlyL8 raised about the new Porsche "Super Car" is real interesting.
Id buy one, although they have to change those lights !!!

Just my tuppence worth

Kind regards,
Alex "We dont have V8s in the UK" Counsell

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911 2.7S Targa
email:alex@cascade.f9.co.uk

I guess they'd have to get that water cooled V8 outta the S1 too judging by some of the comments. As far as drag racing is concerned I would have thought by now everyone would know of Eddie Bello and his NINE SECOND C2 TURBO on 10" STREET TIRES. I'm sure he spent fifety grand plus to get the 1000HP needed out of the Tubo motor. Point is these cars can drag race, and do it well. True, if you put in a SBC you no longer have a Porsche. You have an extremely fast car with Porsche good looks and light weight.

[This message has been edited by RarlyL8 (edited 07-13-2000).]