RSR Conversion on my '71S? Should I?
 

I need to do something with my car next year, I was thinking an RSR conversion would be cool, but it is an S. The car is far from original, it's beat up and hacked up, but surprisingly little rust aside from the front pan. The engine and trans are from a '68S. Some one hacked off all the fender lips, they didn't do a very good job of it either, looks like it was done with tin snips!! Both fenders and both quarters have been rolled, and none of them match. The car was hit at some point on the front passenger side and never fully repaired resulting in the passenger fender and bumper sitting funny (the inner fender is pushed down). Oh yeah, lots of bondo, but no bondo bubbles in the 3 years that I've owned the car. The roof is nice:D. I've done a few things to the car since I bought it, I've installed a Seine Systems gate shifter, 7&8x15 Fuchs, 22mm torsion bars up front, TRG inverted coilovers with 450# springs in the rear, and I have all the parts to build a 2.7 RS engine except for an early aluminum case.
I guess I have two options, restore to stock, or an RSR conversion. Either way I'll be cutting the quarters up to weld on ones with fender lips or to graft on RSR flares, same goes for the front, of course if I went stock I would just find a decent set of fenders. Stock would require a '71 2.2S engine with intact MFI and a '71 type 911 transmission, these could be tough to track down. I could go RSR now and then in 20 years after I have all the original parts return it to stock. I guess I just need a little input, see what other people think. Anyways here are some pics.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1164251211.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1164251388.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1164248318.jpg
Started cleaning up the bumpers.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1164248386.jpg
Damage to passenger inner fender
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1164248452.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1164248493.jpg
What that causes
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1164248548.jpg

Outdoor pics are from today, she had a bath this morning.

Thanks
Kevin

Here are pics of the uneven fender roll job

Passenger fender
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1164251584.jpg
Drivers fender
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1164251630.jpg
Passenger quarter
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1164251675.jpg
Drivers quarter
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1164251720.jpg

I just don't know. I'm usually a stickler for originality, but in this case, hmmm...

If this car was in pretty decent condition with original motor, I would recommend restoring to stock, but since the original motor and tranny are gone and probably impossible to track down, and the body's kind of hacked up, I think an RSR could be fun.

Be interesting to see what other people think,

ianc

restore to stock

The car was originally a European car, it was imported sometime in the late 80's early 90's to Canada. I think. The only proof of this is an unpaid parking ticket from Sweden in 1986 kept in the glove box:). For all I know the original engine could be somewhere in Europe!! I'm leaning toward the RSR conversion but theres a nagging feeling that I shouldn't. But an early S just isn't the same without it's original engine. Maby I should call the PO and see if he knows anything.

Hey Kevin - hello from north vancouver BC!

My $ 0.02:

The value in having an S is in the originality and the condition. Since neither of these apply in your case, I bet you'd spend more money restoring the car to original S spec than building your dream RSR clone. The problem with going original, is that you have to spend the premium $ to get the real deal original parts. If you cut corners and go non-original, then the value of the S declines.

You'll simply get a bigger bang for the buck by building a RSR hotrod. You can buy all sorts of cool aftermarket race hardware for the same or possibly less $ than you'd pay for original S parts made of unobtanium and end up with a pretty damned cool car. I'm guessing that built right, the RSRS would run circles around a stock 71S too, but that may or may not be your goal.

So, like many people reading in this thread, I first reaction was to scold you for thinking about destroying another S, but it sounds like that's basically been done already so your conscience should be clear.

Nice looking longhood by the way. Sounds like it needs a bigger engine tho' ;)

I agree with Jasper, as I usually do!! Make it the car you want if it needs work.

Cheers

Ok,
I am going to give you the ultimate answer.

BUILD WHAT YOU WILL LOVE TO DRIVE

Facts: the early untouched "S" cars in concourse condition are worth a fortune.
Porsches are always changing from early to late and back again.
Parts for these cars sell for the same, if not more than you paid for them
Early replica RSR cars are worth a lot IF built on a 1973 and built properly.

Thoughts: Your car already can not be a concourse car.
Your car can be changed to whatever you want whenever you want providing you have the money.

Conclusion: BUILD WHAT YOU WILL LOVE TO DRIVE.
you can always change it later

Nathan

Good luck to you

Thanks for the input guys. Whichever way I go there will be no expense spared, I will do it proper. Jasper, you do make a good point, it was a previous owner who hacked this car, I'm just here to make it right. The RSR would be a lot more fun, bigger brakes, bigger engine, bigger wheels....

It sounds to me like your dream car is an RSR with bigger motor, brakes etc. If you build this car into an RSR replica then you'll end up with exactly that an RSR replica. The only thing that will be S about this car at that point is a piece of paper that has it written on it.

If it were me I would sell it and buy an RSR project like in the classifieds. You'll come out way ahead money wise and have a better foundation for your RSR project. Proceeds from this car will get you a lot closer to your dream.

There are people out there who's dream car is a 71'S. Put it on ebay and they will find it.

By the way, there is also a 71'S motor for sale in the classifieds. It belongs to Brian Kolar (BK911) who has been on the board for years and is straight up.

That motor and your car would make a nice package for someone. wanting to restore a 71'S.

By the way, I see the original color is Signal Yellow. A great early color that should help resale value.

I think this is great advice.

ianc

Its an S though! Unless that car has clips or a bunch of rust its worth some good money. It just needs some attention. I would get some nice 3-piece Fuchs and some 225's to fill up those stock fenders, go through the entire suspension, put in a low mileage 3.2L and you'll have a car that could do laps around its old self, yet still have a good platform to upgrade from in the future.

If you really have a soft spot for a widebody I would get one from the classifieds.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Clint

Build your RSR. Why jump thru the hoops of selling this car and buying another? You know what's going on with this one. To me, this car was an S, now its a body with an S VIN and an older S engine. Essentially it's an S replica at this point. Build the car you want. Get rid of the hacked up fenders. Paint it the color you love. Keep us posted.

+1

I say cut her up:), really do what your heart feels, i cut my 82 it was best for it because it was nothing special. the best thing to do is sit down with paper and pencil and see what the cost will be both ways and make a decision, Kevin

Sell and start with another car. It makes better financial sense, as you don't need an S body to start from.

George

Of course starting with another car puts you at the same point of not knowing the shape of the car at that point. Building your car will be a liitle more cash but you will know it from the ground up. For a car you are keeping, that information is priceless.
Nathan

The engine in an S, was the only option not available on a T. Yours is gone, Go for it! Looks like it was signal orange originally too, that's cool

There are no unknowns in buying another car. You will want to start with just a tub and go from there. That's what I would do. If you start from a tub, you will know that car very well, better probably than you car to know it! ;)

George

If it had numbers matching engine I'd be inclined to say restore to stock but since it will now never be 'original' and has already been fooled with I say do whatever makes you happy.

Even with S prices as they are I seriously doubt you'd get any ROI getting it back to stock.

I think doing an RSR depends on whether or not you are going to do the work yourself. If you love projects and tearing apart a car and rebuilding it does it for you, then you should go for it.

On the other hand if you are going to farm out most of the work just to get to the end result then you should sell it and go for a project that is done or at least close to done.

The cost of having others do it will be much more in the long run and not near as satisfying.
Just my .02

you would probably be better off selling and buying one that is done, it will cheaper then converting your car, Kevin

The wisest thing is to sell it and buy something else to cut up.

However, if you decide to keep it and mod it, please dont do another RSR. Go with an ST look and keep it all period 71. Perhaps its just me, but upgrading an S to ST using all the correct parts is more sympathetic than making an RSR replica from it. Besides, a lot of people feel that the RSR look is a bit played out.
Just my two cents :)

wow, again thanks for all the input. The original color was tangerine. Selling is not an option. I've thought about it many times when not looking at the car:D. This isn't just a hunk of metal that can be replaced, it has a soul and a personality. I love this car, plus it is the first Porsche that I bought. If I could sell I wouldn't have started this post. I knew nothing about wrenching before I owned this car, now I'm the guy my friends come to when they have a problem with their cars (now all they'll have to do is buy Porsche's and I'll be happy to do it for them) :) I plan on doing all of the work myself except for paint and the machining of engine parts. I have considered the ST, it would be period correct but I really don't like the look of the ST flares.

Thanks
Kevin

You are under no obligation to restore the car because it is an "S". You are also under no obligation to sell it and buy something else for a project. It is your car, build what you want to drive!

flame away :)


Cheers

My vote is for an RS conversion. Without the original engine it's not a viable canadate for a restoration to original. Plus a good restoration to a RS would be worth more to a larger pool of buyers. Well that's my 2 cents, good luck

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1164333734.jpg

Exactly ! I bet this car will pull $15k on ebay. Also your 68`s engine should be a 901/02 aluminum case motor. I would sell it by itself and put a run of the mill 2.0-2.7 in its place. The S engine should fetch $6-$8k by itself and wont really get you much more if left in the car.

In short $15k on car
$7k on engine
-$2k for replacement engine
= $20k towards ready to drive RSR car

And as a bonus you preserved an early S car since the buyer will restore it .

Kurt Williams

Unfortunately it's not an aluminum engine case, in mid year '68 they changed to the mag case and thats what I have. I couldn't get 7k for the engine, it has '69T heads on it, I have the original heads but they need a valve job, it has solex cams and it leaks a lot of oil. I'm sure selling my car wouldn't be a problem but getting another one would. I live in Canada, an imported car has to be bone stock and in perfect condition. I would hate to buy a roller, do the conversion and then not be able to register and insure it. Canada is limited and pricy when it comes to P-cars, a $1500 944 in Cali. would probabily sell for $5000 up here.

I don't think that's quite true kevin. You may be right about not being able to import a roller (maybe) but a car you import doesn't have to be stock original etc. It has to pass a safety inspection , but even then I don't think this has to be done right away, I think it can be done when you register it.

You are right about the value of Porsches up here though. A $10K USD car is worth pretty much $20K CDN up here, depending on model, condition blah blah blah

That all said, there's some good advice up there. A few votes for a restoration, but really it's not a viable option AFAIAC.

As far as not liking ST flares goes....from some angles I agree, but not from this angle:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1164342857.jpg

A 2.2S is appreciating - keep it, restore it.

that could end - or pause for years...

but I still say restore it - it is an S and you can do things to move it back towards stock while driving it for a few years.

put any motor in it while you look for an S motor; it wouldn't be the same engine # as was on a CoA (assuming the CoA's are ever correct...); but the car will be worht quite a bit with an S-type motor even if not the original motor #. After all, if your 35 yr old motor finally blew up and you got a new one, couldn't you still win a concours?

Jasper is that your car? I love the flares on the front, thats exactly what I want!! A flare that stays away from the top of the fender leaving the body line intact. The ST flare starts at the top of the fender and slopes down steeply to the wheel opening, the RSR flare also starts at the top of the fender but has less slope to the wheel opening. The reason I dont like the ST flare is because it looks too droopy, the RSR is not as bad. Who makes the flares on the car pictured? What do the rears look like? Anyone know? Ok, now I'm excited!!!

Randy, you make a good point. I'm not much of a concourse guy but I can appreciate originality. It's just my fenders and quarters are so hacked up, they are going to require a lot of work either way, flare or no flare.

Here you go... (not mine but you wanted to see these pictures right?)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1164362202.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1164362224.jpg

ST or sell it if you're hung up on the RSR thang. A proper ST flare is the sexiest piece of work period.

Makes the RS, RSR, SC & turbo flares look like crap!:p

dibs on the white fuchs!!

Hi Kevin - no, not my car, I wish. That's an original S/T that made the rounds on the web recently. As you can see, more pics have been posted. That's actually the first S/T I've ever "seen". I agree there's been a few since that made the rounds where the fenders look "droopy". This one is all cool though, you'll agree.
SmileWavy