Need help valuing (another) project car
 

You guys have been great giving me feedback on car's I've been looking at for a rebuild project. Here's another I saw today:

Its a '82SC Targa. Here's the skinny: The seller says that it started sputtering this spring. He took it to a mechanic who apparently found a "blown out" sparkplug. He removed the engine/tranny from the car preparing to do a top-end rebuild. When the owner was informed of this, he told him to stop as he didn't have the cash to pay for a rebuild. This is how it sits - engine/tranny out beside the car. Here are my impressions of the car when I saw it this morning:

Body:
The car has had a lousy paint job. Looks good from 10', but when you get closer you noticed it was a quicky job. Whoever did it didn't even take the time to remove/mask over things like the squirters for the windshield/headlights. Even the rubber seal inside the trunk (front) is painted. There is some rust, althought it seems to be concentrated in a couple areas. In both door jambs, the rear lower part of the door jamb is rusted thru (see pics). The painter tried to hide it by putting some flimsy tin foil over it before painting. There is some rust bubbling up on the outside of the car behind the door just ahead of the rear wheel well. The floor pans are good - the interior of the front trunk looks good, although a bunch of engine parts (exhaust system) was stored in there so I couldn't look under all the carpet. Lifted the battery out, and no significant rust there. I noticed some rust bubbling thru the paint on the passenger's side front fender just behind the headlight. I took my pick and could push it thru where the bubbles were (you can see the hole from my pick in the picture). Aside from those places, I wasn't able to see anymore rust. Floorboards were fine. The passenger side door gives a nice "clunk" when closed. The drivers side door needs a very firm slam to get it closed, but when it closes it does give a firm "clunk." Its possible that the rubber on the bottom of the door jam is preventing the drivers side door from closing properly as it has been lifted to expose the extent of the rust. Both doors, when closed line up nicely with the lines of the car.

Interior:
Pretty clean - well actually very dirty, but in nice shape. Brown leather seats in near perfect condition. Brown dash had no cracks, but the covering on the drivers side close the window seemed to be delaminating slightly, but nothing too serious. Carpets, although dirty, seemed in good condition and could likely be saved. Targa top did not have any tears but one the pin on the drivers side rear of the top that fits into the body was broken off - likely fixable. Door panels are in good shape.

Engine/transaxle:
Out of the car. One spark plug wire was removed, but it was difficult to see down the hole to see what was going on with the sparkplug. Everything seemed to be there for the engine. At a minimum, it will likely need a top-end rebuild. Good looking stainless steel exhaust system that would polish up nicely. CV axle boots were in good shape.

Overall, there are two worries - Is the lousy paint job hiding more rust? What's up with the engine?

What do you think? Is it worth $5K?

http://ipodifier.com/images/911/Car side view.JPG
http://ipodifier.com/images/911/Driv... door rust.JPG
http://ipodifier.com/images/911/Engine-tranny front.JPG
http://ipodifier.com/images/911/Engine-tranny side.JPG
http://ipodifier.com/images/911/Exha...m in trunk.JPG
http://ipodifier.com/images/911/Pass... headlight.JPG

Yikes. That looks like $1500 collection of parts at best. What sort of nimrod leaves his engine out in the weather like that, airbox open etc. RUN dude or buy it for parts.

The engine was covered nicely and protected from the elements. I removed the cover to inspect it.

You could easily put another 5-10K into it to end up with a $10K car in the end.......Run....

i would probably go $2000 to $2500, but no more. that gives you a profit margin if you end up parting it out. crank $1000, case $1000, heads $500, and the rest is profit.

I doubt that that door rust is concentrated. You probably can't see all the rust on that car. The wheels look decent. Although they look like 6s and 7s and not that valuable. I agree with the comment above. That's a $1500 (at best) collection of parts.

I saw that car on ebay today.

It did look attractive, but seeing those pictures!

That car looked like it had good potential from a 1,000,000 miles away.

The guy selling it I guess does not believe in full disclosure.

Once you hit $20,000 invested, you'll wish you spent $12,000 on a quality SC that was loved and cared for.

RUN AWAY! SmileWavy

Parts car. Agree with JW $2500 tops.

Poor uncared for car, parts is it's current calling. At 5K you could make your $$ back but at 2-3K you could make a few bucks. Sad that someone let this happen.

$2k tops, and only if you have the time and intention to part it out. That car is a mess.

Yikes, you guys are really ragging on it. Its not in tip top shape, sure, but I'm not sure its all that bad. The majority of the body does not appear to have any rust. The lousy paint job is probably about 5 yrs old and I would think that anything that is going to bubble thru likely already has. Perhaps I should have uploaded all the pics I took, not just the ones of the nasty bits. The engine is a bit of a mystery, yes, but its all there. I'm looking for a project car, not something I that I can drive home.

Can I expect to find a rust-free project car for <$5K? If the chassis can be deemed solid, does it matter that there's a few rust spots on the body panels? I'm up for rebuilding the engine and a bit of sheet-metal work.

I'm new to 911's and you guys are the experts and I respect your opinions, but to me this glass is half full.

I may go and have another look at her if it doesn't sell on ebay (I can't imagine anyone buying this for the $5K reserve).

Thanks.

Geoff

half full of what is the question?

T$

It "would" be hard to find a rust free complete project car for under $5k but this car isn't rust free and to me that's the main problem here.

That rust in the rocker at the bottom of the door latch panel is bad news. Usually when you see this the inner rocker that you don't see is also rusted. It probably has the same problem on the other side and a shop will charge $2500 just to fix these areas.

I'm not saying you should pass on the car. Just saying this car is not a $5000 car.

I'm a bodyman by trade. when you can SEE rust like that you can count on much , much, more that you can't see. to fix even halfway properly will cost a pile of coin. get a hold of a fridge magnet, the thin plastic kind, and go over the whole car. if it sticks, ok. where it doesn't stick expect lots of bondo. A person who lets a car get like this probably didn't pay to fix things properly before the last splash job. for what it's worth, a solid body is key, everything else is nuts and bolts. easy, if not cheap, to change. just my two canadian cents worth. ( about 1.8 us cents ). Don.

None of what you show here is a problem.. whats UNDERNEATH is going to be the problem.. more than likely the rockers are history and you might find the front pan bad and maybe the rear torsion tube mounts.. the car needs to go on a lift.. this could easily be a parts car but you could have a surprise and find the bottom is solid.. to me if you have a solid bottom the rest is easy.

Dude. Do what you want. You requested some opinions. You got them. Take our advice and avoid some heartache. Ignore us and pay the consequences. But please don't tell us we're "ragging" on a car that to anyone with any level of late model Porsche experience KNOWS is an obvious pile of crap.

Yes. It's going to take you a VERY long time to find any rust free 911 project car for under $5,000. Good luck with your search. SmileWavy

I'd buy it as a donor for some parts to build up a roller, if that'w what you want, a project. Saving that car is insane, IMHO. For a donor, asuuming the trans is worth several hundred and the core motor might be worth 2K, the only "profit" available is the rest, incluluding the best of the rest, which are the wheels. 6 inchers will get 300 tops. So, there's your budget for the car; $2500. Of course, little surprises are nice and that's why we do crazy things like this. The body on that car is toast.

I could use the hood, if it's straight and originally black on the bottom side. However, there ain't no snow on the ground outside, so I'm thinkin' you're not too close by.......

non running rusty Targa with engine and trans sitting beside it... hmm... not worth saving but you could part it out and use the profit to buy a better car. 3.0 core 2500, 915 trans ~750 - 1000... fuchs 700... trailing arms 500, front suspension 500. then go buy a nice running and driving SC Targa for about 10K.

Case and point:
Im restoring a 69.. I missed two rust areas when it was on the lift. Will cost me about 25 hrs of my labor.. and a lot of work in really crappy areas. Now I did expect to miss a thing or two but I wish I spent about $3k more and didn't have to do this work. Decent early 911's are hard to find.. I suspect the one you are looking at is easy to find.. so you have no excuse if you miss something nasty.. dont kick yourself in the ass.. How much is your labor worth? Do you have a lot of time on your hands..?Cutting out panels only to find more and more rust is not fun.. its why we have anti-depressant medication.

P.S. I dont consider the engine out a value factor.. in this case it nearly ads to the value as you should probably go thru the motor anyway.

And, the way parts are selling these days, I'd take off 20% from Larry's prices. Once upon a time...... but not now. POS. Leave it sit there. Another case in point: A memeber of this bbs bought a '70 coupe, all there, but a basket case. The seller was a shop moving out of state, so the buyer got a little anxious thinking this was a "fire sale." After I looked at it and told him what the body needed (way too rusty), he decided to sell. $1200. He paid 2200. Ouch.

I offered 1500, but I was too late, didn't know about the 1200 deal. Probably for the best that I didn't get it.

that rust area is the whole strength of a targa. i've see them lifted on a rack and the gap between door and rear quarter grew to 1 1/2 ". you're hoping the chassis may be rust free, but being that most of the car is unibody, what you're looking at IS the chassis.

For what its worth, here's a couple more pics I took of the car.

Mats were pulled up - no rust on the floor boards. Seats, dash and carpet were in v. good condition.
http://ipodifier.com/images/911/Interior.JPG

Engine compartment looked pretty clean
http://ipodifier.com/images/911/EngineCompartment.JPG

Just be done with this car. Unless you want to part it out. As a rusty 911 collector, Rusty 911's are a pain in the A$$! I have 2 of them and wish I had zero of them. Find a nice solid car to start with and have fun tinkering with it WHILE you drive it.

If there is a back door cheap way into the 911 world this is NOT it! Even if you bought this car and got it in running decent shape 3-4 years from now you would be kicking yourself, because instead of driving a targa with your wallet 25K lighter you could be driving a turbo.

You've had several very smart people tell you to leave this one alone, listen to them!

Can't see much from there.. can you go back and take some shots of the following:

Front torsion bar mounts
rear torsion tube mounts in and outer
front axle mounts to floor pan area
the jack points.. not sure on this year but I think you can see whether the inner rocker is solid from there..

Also look at all the seams on the bottom.. all the way around and especially the tank support area...

based on that pic from the rear it might not be in too bad of shape.. but you HAVE to look at above to know for sure. The rust area you showed above the rocker is an easy repair.. You have to cust that piece out to do the rocker anyway if that needs it.. I just did that one last week.. easy schmeesy.

i look forward to watching you restore this car. keep us posted.

I would offer as much as $3k if I had the time to part it out. Once you have fully dismantled it and learned a few things you could take the profits and buy a solid one. I think you have at least $5k worth of parts there. Maybe more than $6k with the use of Ebay. However spending $5k on this as a whole would be a huge mistake. Take a look at my signature below. I do have a few experiences with purchasing these great cars. All of the above givin advise from others is in check. They are looking out for you. Not just beating the car up. Shop wisely. You made the right decision joining this forum. Dont jump into the first deal you see.
BTW if that car does meet the reserve there is no way the buyer will be pleased. If the buyer picks it up in person there is no dought he will walk away with his cash still in pocket.
I would wait 3 weeks and go back to the guy offering $2200 and go from there. Let him relize his car is a parts car and nothing more.

Kurt Williams

Here's a direction you might consider if you don't mind a project.

Make an offer in the $2000 to $2500 range for this car and leave your phone number. The pool of potential buyers for this car is very small, mainly dismantlers, and they are not about to pay anywhere near $5k.

If the guy accepts your offer then you can buy it for it's parts. Then find yourself a nice no rust SC or Carrera Targa roller. They are out there.

If you look in the parts classifieds here you'll find one. People buy these cars for there motor and tranny to use in their 914 racers and then they part the cars to offset the motor purchase. You can find these rollers in the $2500 range. Buddabing buddabang you now have a rust free project in your price range.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. This a car Scott (Ytnuklr) sold for $2500. Rust free 84' Targa roller. He bought it for the drivetrain and then sold it. Add your interior and drivtrain and you have a nice Targa for $5000 plus some extra parts to sell.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=297914&highlight=86+Tar ga+roller

Bobby,

Thanks - good idea. I had planned to let the ebay auction run its course then go have another, more thorough look next weekend and give him an offer based on this. At this time of year, I think a seller of a car in this condition just want to get rid of it before the snow falls (New Hampshire) rather than have to try to protect it from the elements over the winter. He'd probably be open to a lower offer because of this.

Geoff