New to 911's Continued...

I thank you all for your advice. I should probably let you all know that I am a college student with no money, except for what my present car is worth (Which I haven't sold yet,dammit!) and an old motorcycle. I am thinking about running my car into a telephone pole to collect the insurance money. Whoever said I would find one car and fall in love was right. I just looked at a 1975 911S Targa that has been "converted" to a 911SC. Now before you all freak out listen to what has been done to it.

Cosmetically: SC flares, SC emblem on the back, 79 SC leather interior and dash, new paint, and some other stuff that is not as important as the engine.

Engine: Air Conditioner (that works well), Carerra Chain Tensioner, Aluminum Valve Covers (no more Magnesium), new Valve Guides and studs. Here's my favorite part. This car was not origionally from California so there are no thermal reactors, with an oil cooler to boot. Runs good with no leaks.

What do you all think? If I don't get rid of my car soon or get a Porsche soon I think I'll go nuts. To make it worse, my girlfriend's dad drives one that I see everyday. Well, I'm starting to sound like a spoiled brat, so I'll stop. Thanks a million for all the help

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--Jason Liso

Jason,
before you rush out and buy the car you have to consider that it's one of those 2.7L engines that tend to pull studs. Does the conversion include a SC engine? I'm also a poor college student so I know how it feels. Now that my 911 is on jackstands I have to stand the PWS every day(Porsche Withdraw Syndrome). Make sure it has also the converted 11 blade fan. Don't forget to get a reputable Porsche mechanic to check the car out before you plunk down any money. Oh, and make sure you see absolutely NO rust. These pre '77 cars don't have any galvanizing on the metal body. Good luck.

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Jeff
1976 911S

Jason,
Not trying to bash the 2.7 or those who own them, but I'd really suggest continuing the search for an SC within your budget. The last thing you need as a student is to be looking at $3-6000 in engine work for your new baby. I'm not saying that's a sure thing, just that the odds are undeniably higher with the 74-77 cars than the others. Not to mention that the SC will have better resale value, and has more power!

[This message has been edited by campbellcj (edited 10-24-2000).]

Where do you live? In California? Remember the 75's still need to be smogged, so if the best part is that the var is not from California you may have trouble with the smog requirements if you intend to register it in California. As stated previously, plunk down the money for an SC. I bought mine about 2 years ago and I love it. A converted 911s is still just a converted SC. If you want an SC look for an SC. The 3.0 engine offers a lot of power and the SC is a great handler.

I'm in agreement. The '75 might turn out to be a fine car, but a real SC has a better chance (reliability). It also has more power, is newer with more goodies, has a galvanized body....

Lots of pretty faces out there to fall in love with. find an '83. Quartz Grey Metallic. Steel fuel lines. Upgraded air box. Several improvements that even the earlier SCs didn't have. Did I say I like my car?



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'83 SC

Sounds to me like you really want a SC Targa. Take your time. You'll find one. If you find one that is a little out of your budget, make an offer that you can afford and leave your number. Who knows you may get lucky. I think you will find one though.

Bobby

It still has a magnesium crankcase. Also a 1975 isn't galvanized. I have to say that I agree with the others. Go for a 78 SC or newer. At least go for a 1976 car to get the fully galvanized bodywork.

I'm also young and without money (except for the fortune invested in my 84 3.2). My advice: Make sure you get a decent 911. Never mind the small details, just get a car with a healthy bodywork and engine/gearbox. All the other stuff can be done without taking a loan in the bank. Except maybe for the exhaust.... So check the heat exchangers too.

To help you decide and resuggest that you go with a 78-83 SC (3.0L engine vs the bad-news 2.7L engine), I've copied my post to
"Real world power out of 3.0 vs. 2.7" (by VIPRKLR --- last amended 10-23-2000 11:21 PM) below:


...I've owned them both (74 911 2.7 & 82 911SC 3.0).

I bought the 2.7 with 30K miles and it started leaking oil thru the valve guides at 60K. Finally exploded doing 125mph when one of the valves wobbled bad enough to stick open, piston hit it on the next upstroke, exploded and took the finned casing with it. In a split second it had destroyed one entire piston, sleeve, wrist pin, rings, et all leaving just that incredibly strong connecting rod to proceed to enlarge the whole in the magnesium case. Spent $5000 in parts and machine shop work to put it all back together including new dilavar studs, etc. Later it developed more problems and I was never happy with it. To top it off the 74 was the least troubled 2.7 --- the 75 to 77s had those thermal reactors for exhaust and usually turned your engine into a Chernobyl nuclear reactor meltdown (heat-wise) without the radiation.

The 3.0 Porsche I bought from somebody who never changed the oil, allowed the oil lines to deteriorate to the point of my having 8 oil line leaks to fix (I replaced practically all of them including the thermostat), the plug wires are falling apart, the vacuum advance had a leak that was patched with silicone, some vacuum lines weren't plugged into anywhere, it backfired like crazy because the rich/lean mixture was way off, the timing was off, and it had about 130k miles on it. I've put another 25k miles on it --- but the basic engine it self? --- goes like a bat out of hell --- solid as a rock, despite incredible mistreatment by the previous (idiot) owner(s)!

I think you can guess my opinion on which way you should go!


..... By the way they were both Targas and they both leaked a little no matter how hard I tried to stop them but, hey, so what, I love taking the top off in the sunshine... course if you could afford an 84-up Cabriolet, I'd go for that!

BTW, I forgot to mention the A/C problems...

I don't know if the 75 has the same setup as the 74 but if it does watch out.

The 74 had the York type (lotsa vibration) compressor mounted on a bracket just above the right-side (passenger) cam-chain covers. It was attached to a bracket that used the bolts that go thru the cam chain cover (slightly longer naturally). But that's the ONLY place it was bolted. There was no attachment at the top back part of the bracket so it wobbled alot. This was because the belt pulls down on the front of the compressor at the pulley wheel. As a result it eventually pulled the attaching am chaim studs right out of that soft magnesium engine case and I had to use ThreadSaver?-Certs (can't rember exactly what they're called) to bolt it back up. Did it twice more even with large ThreadSaver?-Certs! Finally fabricated a bracket at the back to bolt to one of the intake tube bolts in order to give it some back support.

Again, no love on my part for the 2.7liter but LOTSA admiration for the 3.0Liter!

Another BTW forgot to mention...

The reason my engine exploded was not because of the head studs pulling (though I've heard of a lot of them that did it for that reason) --- mine was because the 2.7 also used poor valve guide materials --- that's why the valves leaked and eventually failed. I replaced them with Phosphorus bronze guides. Also did the Dilavar stud thing which I have heard was not the perfect solution either and fixed the cam chain tensioner problem and..., and..., and... --- you get the picture! The cost of having a specialist rebuild the huge whole in my magnesium engine case was also a killer.

Go 3.0 liter 78-83 911SC or newer!

Jason,

It is not entirely clear whether the '75 you found has the SC engine or not ... but even if it has, the 3.0 engines are not without problems, as Leland and others can attest! As far as the 'new' studs go, I would recommend just one thing, if the car doesn't have complete records and documentation, you can't believe what sellers tell you!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Hello Jason,

This isn't what you want to read, but please pay attention anyway:

Don't mess with ANY Porsche until you have a well paid job. The older cars in particular can be real money-pits in first few years of ownership, as you (literally) pay for previous owners neglect and the simple fact that nothing mechanical lasts forever.

Remember there never really was a time when Porsche's were cheap - even the humble 911 T models of the late 1960s/early 1970s cost (new) as much as nearly TWO Jaguar XKEs. The "S" models, such as Warren's, cost nearly the same as a Ferrari Dino.

Look at the Pelican site, and review the cost of few common spares - for example, heat exchangers, a replacement distributer, perhaps a brake calliper... etc etc etc.

In short, these cars can be VERY VERY expensive to maintain - and nothing is more heart-breaking than having one that isn't running right because you can't afford to fix it.

So, at the risk of sounding like some boring parent, get your studies out of the way, get yourself in a good job, and in the meantime indulge yourself by reading everything you can get your hands on regarding older Porsches, and joining the PCA (I believe they will let you have an associate membership even if you don't own a Porsche).

You'll find plenty of enthusiatic owners there that will allow you to crawl all over their cars, answer as many questions as you can think of, and give you an occasional drive.

Sorry to sound so negative, but the cost of running one of these wonderful machines is ALWAYS more than expected, and there's no need to rush into ownership before you can afford it.

Caretake,

- roGER

Liso,

I agree with the post that suggested biding your time to find the right 911SC. They are out there. I purchased my 78sc targa from a meticulous retiree for $8995. The best purchase of my life. I scoured the classifieds for months until the stars aligned and I found this particular car. I would also advise, as most others have, to stay away from the 2.7l motors. You're begging for trouble....

A couple of things come to mind (memories)following this thread. The first is having my 911 as my daily driver...(I also have a 944 but has been down for a while due to water pump and motor mounts...seems I spend more time with the 911 as a priority). The 911 went down for CV joints (not a long period but a couple of days in the shop for all to be replaced...waiting for parts)...Public transportation sucks!!!!! The second thought is the associate member thing in PCA. Sounds a lot like the guy that loves airplanes and wants to fly so he works at the local airport washing and parking planes just for flying lessons. Before long he knows how to fly, has his license, knows all about planes, and the burning desire for his own plane. He now knows exactly what he wants! (sorry for the rambling). Did I mention that this "kid" has also been going to school to get his A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) license to work on those planes? (not me but I do personally know a person like that). I know...what's your point? Know all you can...and then some. Then make your decision when you can afford to be choosy!

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Howie
79SC

If you purchase one of this machines make sure that you keep you old motorcycle you will need it soon or later,this cars are very expensive to repair even if you do the work yourself.

What these people say about operating expenses is true. The car is likely to 'break' you financially or worse...you'dd drive a fine car that runs poorly because you can't afford to fix it.

Having gotten that off my chest, here's your situation: Your ONLY hope for success if you insist, is an SC that has been well maintained. If you know your stuff, and get lucky, you could drive one of these wihtout significant expense in the next few years. Unlikely, but not impossible. You'd have to find an exceptional car though.

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'83 SC

Originally posted by zeus65:
I would also advise, as most others have, to stay away from the 2.7l motors. You're begging for trouble....

Yup, especially that magnesium cased 2.7L '73 Carrera RS!

Liso: You should be careful with any Porsche motor and do the homework. The newest 3.0 SC you can buy will be at least 17 years old and will probably need a rebuild just as a 2.7 will probably need a rebuild. You can almost count on having to spend serious bucks with either choice - Porsche maintenance and rebuilds are not cheap.

A vintage 3.0 motor will not pull head studs but can break them - the old head studs on the 3.0 can corrode and fail. Time and miles are catching up with these motors - but some of the 3.0s are running fine with 200k+ miles, without ever being rebuilt. They will not run forever without a rebuild!

The horror stories about the 2.7 are mainly derived from '75 and later US motors that were encumbered with smog 'blast furnaces' that caused this motor to run too hot and created all kinds of expansion differences between and among the various alloys that comprise the case/motor.

Sure the 2.7 was the last iteration of displacement in a long line of mag cased engines that began in '68 with the 2.0 and proceeded with the 2.2, 2.4 and ultimately the 2.7.

The 2.7 is considered the absolute limit of this evolving mag motor - but the 7R case is still considered the best case to build a race motor for any of the 2.7 and lower displacement classes. Of course, an abused mag case will make a poor choice for a rebuild.

If you can find a 3.0 with relatively low miles that was also run consistently over 17+ years, then that might be your best choice. The aluminum cased 3.0 is a great motor - but not immune from problems. No Porsche motor is truly 'bulletproof'.

Don't let the 2.7L naysayers sway your opinion, just be aware that any 17+ year old Porsche motor will require dollars to make right.

A 911 is not the choice for a college student on a very tight budget, IMHO.

If you haven't already, buy Bruce Anderson's 911 Handbook and read that sucker cover to cover.

Best of luck to you!

Kurt http://www.911restorations.com

[This message has been edited by kurtstarnes (edited 11-16-2000).]

Like most of these posts, I guess I'm going to sound a little negative about buying a 911 (or any expensive, high performance car) when you really can't afford it. Wait until you've got the income that driving a Porsche daily requires-otherwise you'll either cut corners to keep it running (and Porsches really deserve better), or it'll sit(and sit, and sit) while you try to scrape up enough money to replace something expensive that broke. I pretty much worked my way up in performance as I worked my way up in income-I can't think of a better way to do it. I started with a '65 VW Beetle that I modified the old single port 40hp 1200cc motor into a 1585cc dual port, shaved and smoothed the body, lowered the suspension, and used for delivering pizzas and to get me to night school for my electronics degree and back. I sold it to pay for the engine rebuild in my '72 Chevelle that I used for street racing and to get me to work and back at a full-time job-the degree helped get that job. I traded the Chevelle in for a slightly used '88 5.0 Mustang that I used for autocrossing and daily driving to an even better paying job-that Mustang was the toughest, most reliable reliable car I've ever owned-the only thing that ever failed in over 150,000 hard miles was the fuel pump-and it ran long enough to get me back home from work-an hour and a half away! I recently sold the old war horse to help pay for the currently ongoing restoration of my '66 912-looking back, every car I've had I used to trade up to something better, faster-or at least more expensive, as my income and mechanical skills grew. Once I get the 912 done and back on the road for a few years, who knows-I could always trade it for the mid- 60's Corvette roadster project I've always wanted to do......

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Clay Mcguill www.geocities.com/the912guy

Jason:
I'm twice your age, but the one thing I've learned is that the anticipation and acquiring prior knowledge before making any major purchase (house, boat,car, etc.) accouonts for half the enjoyment when you eventually do purchase the item. Ever see a rich spoiled kid ruin an expensive item because he didn't have to wait for it? Same thing. You'll care for it and enjoy it much more if you take your time (not to mention that many Porsches will be less expensive due to the passage of a little time) All good things come to those who wait.
regards,
jlex.

I'm more than twice as old as I was when I was in college too, and I'd agree that

1. Waiting makes having sweeter.

2. Research causes good decisions

Oh and by the way, I was not a very good listener 25 years ago. Not very good at all. Still struggling with that I guess.

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'83 SC